Cold Weather/Water Question
 

Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This
will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty
chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford
to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet
were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being
able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait
until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks

What is the water temp and where exactly are you planning on being from
shore? If you are going down a river or close to shore, and can't see any
situation where if all else failed and you couldn't get to shore relatively
quickly, a heavy wetsuit might be feasible.

Here is one exposure table: http://www.universalscuba.com/page49.html


"sparks" wrote in message
...
Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water
(Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I
really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I
found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want to go this
winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety
concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper
alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks

sparks wrote:
Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This
will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water (Indiana..pretty
chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant afford
to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the internet
were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being
able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will wait
until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to
paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to
find one used at a modestly reduced rate.

Good luck,

Rick

Wet suit is fine used in combo with a dry top. I have been doing white water
for years year round down to 15 % and windy and always been comfy, even in
my first season when I took some cold water swims. Add a neoprene balaclava,
gloves ( or pogies ) and neoprene booties, and you're all set. Now if you're
talking expansive open water where you could be in it for a long time, that
is you do not have a roll, then dry suit for sure. Also, if you are wearing
a spray skirt and gloves, hang a LARGE carabiner on the grab loop. This way
when upside down, the weight of the biner will extend the grab loop and make
it easy to find.
"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
sparks wrote:
Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This
will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water
(Indiana..pretty
chilly right now). What can you recommend for clothing? I really cant
afford
to go out and buy an expensive dry suit (the ones I found on the
internet
were $400 and up ). We really want to go this winter but...if not being
able to afford a drysuit is going to be a safety concern then I will
wait
until spring : ) Anyone have any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to
paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to
find one used at a modestly reduced rate.

Good luck,

Rick

On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.

The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.

Mike

Rick wrote:
sparks wrote:

Greetings,
Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water
(Indiana..pretty chilly right now). What can you recommend for
clothing? I really cant afford to go out and buy an expensive dry suit
(the ones I found on the internet were $400 and up ). We really want
to go this winter but...if not being able to afford a drysuit is going
to be a safety concern then I will wait until spring : ) Anyone have
any cheaper alternatives?

Thanks!
Sparks

Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to
paddle in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to
find one used at a modestly reduced rate.

Nonsense Rick. A wetsuit needed to paddle in conditions where the water
is still flowing wouldn't be too thick. Combine it with a good
(semi-)drytop and a couple of layers of polypro underneath that drytop,
and you can be nice and warm in those conditions.

Very few people over here buy drytops due to their their very high
prices, and that's with the main paddling season being in the winter:

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler15.html

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler16.html

http://wilko.webzone.ru/galler19.html

I would agree if you'd say that a drytop can be a cosier alternative,
but it comes at a price and a risk.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still
necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out
the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with
hard objects. It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly
gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments... And then I haven't
started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-)

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash. These neck gaskets
are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out,
because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn
thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that
every time. Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective
neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie. It's not cheap nor easy
for beginners to replace gaskets yourself, especially neck gaskets. I
replaced the wrist gaskets of two semi-dry tops, and although I'm rather
handy, it still took quite some skill and time.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear
socks inside them. That also makes it less important to have tight ankle
gaskets, so that your feet get more blood, in turn keeping them warmer.
Get a paddling dry suit which comes with an extra tunnel around the
waist, under which you can put the tunnel of your spraydeck, keeping the
seepage into your boat through the tunnel to a minimum.

Make sure that it's a paddling drysuit, with neoprene gaskets covering
the vulnerable latext gaskets, and adding to the safety by still having
some layer to keep water out in the case that you rip a gasket.

Always get one with a relief zipper, and if you do spend the pile of
money needed to get a Goretex dry suit, have a look at the Goretex
website to hear about how to treat it.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a dry
suit is a must. A wetsuit to meet your needs would be too thick to paddle
in and insufficent once you were immersed. You may be able to find one
used at a modestly reduced rate.

Good luck,

Rick

Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go on a
resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this
weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it safe... I
appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right place
to ask!!

See you all in warmer weather!

Wilko, in general I agree with your comments about drysuits.
For me the biggest advantage of a drysuit is that it can have
integral socks, which make a big difference in keeping feet warm,
especially for open-deck boaters. You skillfully enumerated the
disadvantages of cost, gasket discomfort, and safety problems.

Two specific disagreements:

Wilko wrote:
If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can
wear socks inside them.

Neoprene or fabric socks (goretex or other coated cloth) last longer
than latex. With all the scouting and portaging I do, I never got
more than a year out of latex socks. The goretex ones I have on now
have lasted at least 5 years.

Always get one with a relief zipper...

I have been very unhappy with my relief zipper, which leaks badly.

The newish Palm drysuit has the main zipper in an arrangment so that
men can use it for "relief" after taking off the PFD. I recommend
avoiding relief zipper if possible (not possible with Kokatat designs)
to save money and avoid possible failure.

On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote:

Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go on a
resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this
weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it safe... I
appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right place
to ask!!

See you all in warmer weather!

You're wimping out based on bad advice. I know lots of paddlers who go out
in winter without drysuits. Experience, preparation and care matter more
than clothes.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote:

Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go
on a
resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this
weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it
safe... I
appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right
place
to ask!!

See you all in warmer weather!

You're wimping out based on bad advice. I know lots of paddlers who go
out
in winter without drysuits. Experience, preparation and care matter more
than clothes.

Mike

I have to agree with Mike. The year I got my first kayak, I went out every
weekend for a year and a half. When the lakes and rivers froze up, we went
on the ocean. I still paddle most weekends all year round, maybe more in
the winter, because the rivers here dry up in the summer. A regular pair of
wetsuit pants, and neoprene booties with wool socks has always kept my lower
half warm - and I've gone for quite a long swim (when my roll failed me)
with crushed ice from the break-up still in the river. I wasn't cold in the
water or on the side of the river trying to free my pinned boat.
The top half is the hardest to regulate. With a dry top on the outside,
when you're warm enough at the start, you're roasting half an hour later.
If you start off a bit chilly, it's chilly if you roll or when you take a
break. Neoprene hat, hood or balaklava is a must to staying warm. I've
lent my gloves on cold days, but haven't really suffered as long as my head
and core were warm.
Mike
Lunenburg, NS Canada, eh.