Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.


The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F
are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later
mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably
qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly
inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by
the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be
justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best.


For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.


Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.


I quite agree.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell - just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.


Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem
to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water
for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book
on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not
base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal
experience with cold water.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also
that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for
emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped.
Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits.
Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual
does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle
in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial
cold water on his plans.

Rick

PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the
purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well.

Ok - my 2 cents. I do not as yet boat in cold water myself but I do plan to
do it. I believe that 25 degrees is absolutely the wrong time to start going
out. When I am ready, I will follow some of the advice given here but I will
start making trips in the fall as the temps start downward and will make
adjustments as I find what works for ME and what does not. By the time the
temps reach 25 I will KNOW if I will be able to handle the conditions with a
fairly high degree of certainty. Again just my 2 cents but I think it is the
way to stay safe and explore your limits.

Ken


"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:


Sorry to disappoint you Sparks, but in the conditions you describe, a
dry suit is a must.


The OP didn't bother to say whether he's referring to WW or SK.

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time (temps as long as -30F to -50F
are not common, but they do occur). During a warm spell (he later
mentioned 25F forecast, probably with significant wind, which probably
qualifies at this time of year as such), a wet suit is fairly
inadequate. The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

I also agree that there are issues with dry suits (I don't own one, by
the way, but have used them and find them too expensive to be
justifyable), and the gaskets are uncomfortable, at best.


For sea kayaking, a wetsuit would be fine _IF_ you are always paddling
in a group, the group members all know how to do quick assisted rescues
and you aren't going to swim for very long. If solo you'd be a lot
better off with a dry suit. A bombproof roll is useful as well.


Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

Make sure you are prepared to deal with cold - extra gear and hot drinks
etc. If someone does end up in the water longer than they are
comfortable,
get to shore and deal with it. Make sure you know about hypothermia and
how to treat it.


I quite agree.

People swim near-naked in freezing water every year and live to tell -
just
do a Google search on "new year's day polar bear swim" and I'll bet
you'll get lots of hits.


Mike, you certainly will. They spend a few seconds in the water and seem
to be quite fine, afterward. Some individuals can stay in freezing water
for an extended period of time (the Icelandic fisherman in McPhee's book
on Iceland would be an example), but this is the exception. I would not
base any advice upon my own, or that of any other individual, personal
experience with cold water.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers. Note also
that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on hand for
emergencies. Most kayaking excursions are much less well equipped.
Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

Paddling is best when you are comfortable, safe, and within your limits.
Knowing what I know of the midwest, and the fact that this individual
does not seem to definitely know the conditions he could safely paddle
in, left me with little other choice, IMO, than to throw the proverbial
cold water on his plans.

Rick

PS: Many dive shops will rent dry suits for considerably less than the
purchase price. I should probably have mentioned that, as well.

On 11-Jan-2005, Rick wrote:

The poster did identify his location (near the great lakes - where I
assumed he'd be paddling), which is one where temps in winter can be
well below 0 for extended periods of time

I live north of him and paddle in cold temps. I own a dry suit and
have also used a wet suit in winter.

The dry top is a good block for the wind, but the wetsuit
itself is not. Most are useless in the wind, by the way, as air has no
difficulty penetratring the seams in the fabric.

That depends on how strong the wind is or how cheap your wet suit is.
Mine at least has sealed seams. We were out on New Year's Day and
there was no wind. I was the only one in a drysuit and everyone else
was quite comfortable.

Since the standard wet suit is a farmer john, a jacket of some kind is
mandatory in wind. Drytop or just a windbreaker, you can be comfortable.

Again, I disagree. Once wet, the suit will accumulate ice and its
thermal abilities would be compromised. Even with a 25F temperature,
without wind, you would find the water temperature to be quite
uncomfortable in a very short time. Sea kayaker did experiements in
water considerably warmer than this and the results were eye-opening.

If you are in the kayak and paddling, you're producing heat. If ice forms,
it will crack and fall off. Besides, a wet suit doesn't hold that much
water on its surface. The neoprene itself does not absorb water and
will not have its insulation compromised. Been there, done that.

I don't know about the Sea Kayaker tests (cite please) but I know I've
gone for a swim in winter and if you're up to it, it isn't that bad.
The big problems are related to controlling breathing - cold water
gasp reflex (sudden inhalation when you hit cold water) can get you,
especially if you are underwater when it happens. When floating,
you have a tendency to breathe in panic mode - control that and
you most of the way to controlling the whole situation.

Note also that these clubs have doctors and rescue equipment on
hand for emergencies.

Liability issues and the fact that out-of-shape bozos come out of the
woodwork to join in the fun. If you've got a heart condition, no,
you shouldn't be risking cold water immersion. If you're fit, that's
another story.

After a capsize, should you lack, or fail, a roll, you will be in the
water for a longer period of time than one of these swimmers.

I've been in water these temps for longer than a few seconds. Even in
a wet suit, it can take several seconds just for the water to penetrate
to your skin if you've got layers on.

Surviving water that is 32F-35F (the likely temps in the region) is not
undoable, but if someone asks me for a recommendation on whether to
paddle on such water and I have little evidence of their skill or
hardiness, I will not, as some here have, recommend going out.

You only said that they have to have a drysuit. A drysuit by itself
is not a solution. I know of folks who have gone out in a drysuit
with no insulation underneath and another that wore a drysuit and
left the zippers open (he drowned - on Superior - I believe it was
discussed here a few years ago).

I give Sparky the benefit of the doubt and assume he's not an idiot,
since he asked for advice. Telling him to be prepared is better
than telling him to stay home.

Mike

Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.
I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's still
necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to keep out
the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close encounter with
hard objects.

It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your point.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly
gasketed drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments...

If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

And then I haven't
started about the strength and agility needed to close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.

These neck gaskets
are the first to become so wide that water can freely flow in and out,
because your (big) head has to go through them, stretching the darn
thing, whereas it should shrink to the size of your neck after that
every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them
fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch
over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not
trimmed to fit properly.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective
neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally
suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks,
they're far more durable that you suggest. For sea kayaking, they're
extremely durable.

It's not cheap nor easy
for beginners to replace gaskets yourself, especially neck gaskets. I
replaced the wrist gaskets of two semi-dry tops, and although I'm rather
handy, it still took quite some skill and time.

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks)
and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35.
Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

If you get one, the tips I've picket up so far a get the latex
booties, but one size bigger than your shoe size, so that you can wear
socks inside them. That also makes it less important to have tight ankle
gaskets, so that your feet get more blood, in turn keeping them warmer.
Get a paddling dry suit which comes with an extra tunnel around the
waist, under which you can put the tunnel of your spraydeck, keeping the
seepage into your boat through the tunnel to a minimum.

Make sure that it's a paddling drysuit, with neoprene gaskets covering
the vulnerable latext gaskets, and adding to the safety by still having
some layer to keep water out in the case that you rip a gasket.

Always get one with a relief zipper, and if you do spend the pile of
money needed to get a Goretex dry suit, have a look at the Goretex
website to hear about how to treat it.

Good advice.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a
durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people
who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more
durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect,
the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Michael Daly wrote:
On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote:


Probably the best thing to do is wait until spring. We were going to go on a
resevoir in western Indiana. It is supposed to be 25 degrees this
weekend...god knows what the wind will be like. I want to play it safe... I
appreciate everyones enthusiastic advice...I knew I came to the right place
to ask!!

See you all in warmer weather!


You're wimping out based on bad advice. I know lots of paddlers who go out
in winter without drysuits. Experience, preparation and care matter more
than clothes.

I have to disagree with you Mike. Unexpected bad things happen, even to
good paddlers. We had an incident this past weekend that drove that
point home quite vividly. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

Sparks, if you can't afford proper immersion clothing for the
conditions, stay off the water. Cold water is not the place for bravado
and bluster. It's a very unforgiving environment that must be treated
with respect. Sure, people get away with pushing their luck, just as
with many other activities. However, you could just as easily be the one
that doesn't get away with it. IMO, it's not worth it. Save your money
and buy a dry suit on sale in the spring. You'll still need it until the
water warms up, anyway.

Brian Nystrom wrote:

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile
unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason.

Except when the reason is old age!

In the March 23rd 1998 high water on the Illinois river in Oregon,
two people died from taking a "long swim". I know for a fact that
one of them tore his drysuit neck gasket during the trip.

OTOH it is amazing that some people wearing drysuits survived swims
over a mile long. That might not have happened in wetsuits.

Brian or anyone, when ya take good care of gaskets by washing salt
and perspiration off them, and by coating them with 303 Protectant
or equivalent, how do ya know when they are in need of replacement?

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Brian Nystrom wrote:

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed when
he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside your
leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can also cause
you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile
unless they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason.


Except when the reason is old age!

In the March 23rd 1998 high water on the Illinois river in Oregon,
two people died from taking a "long swim". I know for a fact that
one of them tore his drysuit neck gasket during the trip.

The question is "when did he tear it?". Was it something that happened
in the middle of the trip and they continued anyway?

OTOH it is amazing that some people wearing drysuits survived swims
over a mile long. That might not have happened in wetsuits.

Brian or anyone, when ya take good care of gaskets by washing salt
and perspiration off them, and by coating them with 303 Protectant
or equivalent, how do ya know when they are in need of replacement?

Typically, one of two things will happen. Either the seals start to show
cracks or they start to get sticky/gooey on the edges. The cracking is
caused by UV and/or ozone exposure and the stickiness is typically
caused by too much contact with skin oil and/or sunscreens containing
oils. Another sign of breakdown is that they will stretch out and become
loose after having fit properly for years.

When the time comes to replace them, there are excellent instructions on
Kokatat's site. OS Systems sells very high quality replacement seals in
many sizes, so it's easier to get a close fit with their products than
most others. That minimizes the amount of trimming you need to do.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.

I'll mention that I wore one as a naval aviator when flying over cold
waters, and so have mucho hours in the thing. I wore a flight suit over
it to protect against abrasion, but it still got abused climbing into
and out of planes and clambering around on the CV flight deck. You get
used to it pretty quick. Ours were goretex with the socks, zipper
horizontal at chest level, and a relief zipper (yea...good luck with
that while wearing a harness).

I use it kayaking now. Plenty comfortable.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.

Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea,
but I was talking about paddling whitewater.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's
still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to
keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close
encounter with hard objects.

It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your
point.

Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike
the fabric of a dry suit *and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when
you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit. You
*can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit
insulates and protects already without that.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed
drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners trying
very hard to get into their prized garments...

If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

Yeah right!

I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become
easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get
in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in
drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I
tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of
my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those.

And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to
close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be
magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen
zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff, not to mention
the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their
zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the
back).

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.

I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and
rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of
neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by
having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other
layer staying in place on the outside.

These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can
freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through
them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size
of your neck after that every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Sure Brian...

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them
fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch
over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not
trimmed to fit properly.

I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several
more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those
have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on
the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop)
also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any more.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective

neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally
suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks,
they're far more durable that you suggest.

Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets
when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the
vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry
top for that matter).

For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable.

Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other
shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian?

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex
socks)
and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35.
Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use.

Four seasons without stretching at all, eh?

BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than
the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting
there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money. Also, it also
takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket
replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the
latex meets the breathable material.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed
when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside
your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can
also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with
a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the
stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear
along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water
started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's
story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have
an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed
such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my
wetsuit at below freezing temperatures.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a
durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people
who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more
durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect,
the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a
difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does,
their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much
time upside-down or dripping wet. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Wilko wrote:


Brian Nystrom wrote:

Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.


Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

No, I don't paddle whitewater and never claimed to. The person who
posted the question didn't say anything about whitewater, either.

Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea,
but I was talking about paddling whitewater.

Fine, but you still haven't answered the question.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's
still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to
keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close
encounter with hard objects.


It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your
point.


Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike
the fabric of a dry suit

Who said otherwise? That's a bogus argument, as any fool knows you need
insulating layers in a dry suit.

*and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when
you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit.

Once more, who said otherwise?

You
*can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit
insulates and protects already without that.

And you can add as many layers under a dry suit as necessary, so it
doesn't make any difference if the fabric insulates or not. Unlike a
wetsuit, a Gore-Tex (or similar) dry suit breathes, so you don't end up
soaking wet from sweat.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed
drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners
trying very hard to get into their prized garments...


If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

Yeah right!

Try it, it works! Ask around and you'll hear the same thing from others.
Nothing to it.

I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become
easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get
in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in
drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I
tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of
my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those.

I'll bet you that I can get into and out of my dry suit faster than you
can get into and out of your wetsuit. As I said, if you trim the seals
to fit right and powder them, you slip right in. If you prefer to
struggle, that's fine with me.

Dry tops tend to be harder to get into and out of, since they have to
fit tight around the waist and the double tunnel adds a layer of
complication. I find them much more difficult than a full dry suit,
which is like slipping into coveralls. And yes, I own two dry tops
currently and have owned others in the past. The latest is a Bomber gear
with a Velcro waist closure that eliminates the struggle of getting the
damn thing past your shoulders.

And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to
close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be
magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen
zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff,

I have never had a single problem with sand jamming a drysuit zipper,
not one. Having a flap over the zipper helps I'm sure, but I've never
even taken any special steps to keep the zippers clean. However, I don't
roll around in the sand, either.

not to mention
the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their
zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the
back).

The vast majority of dry suits sold over here have a front zipper that
goes from the right shoulder to the left hip. It's easy to operate
without assistance. The large opening also makes getting in and out
really easy.

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a
latex gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.


I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and
rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of
neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by
having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other
layer staying in place on the outside.

I've never had a chafing problem with the seals on a dry suit, or a dry
top, for that matter. If you don't like dry suit gaskets around your
neck, how do you deal with drytop gaskets, which are the same thing?

These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can
freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through
them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size
of your neck after that every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Sure Brian...

I call 'em as I see 'em. Latex does not stretch appreciably in normal
use. Ask the manufacturers of the seals, if you don't believe me.

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make
them fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily
stretch over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if
they're not trimmed to fit properly.

I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several
more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those
have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on
the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop)
also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any
more.

Then it's time to replace your seals. The stretching has nothing to do
with putting them on and taking them off, it has to do with the seals
degrading due to UV exposure, skin oil, sunscreen and so on. I don't
doubt that your seals are loosening up, but it's not for the reason you
think it is.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective

neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not
ideally suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion
against rocks, they're far more durable that you suggest.

Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets
when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the
vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry
top for that matter).

Fine. Then buy garments with covers over the seals. It's not like they
aren't widely available. Problem solved.

For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable.

Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other
shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian?

Did the original question reference bramble bushes?

You make these blanket statements about latex seal durability as if
they're absolute truth, but conveniently forget to mention that they're
based on your experience while running around in bramble bushes and
rubbing against rocks, as if it doesn't make any difference. It make a
HUGE difference. If you abuse your dry suit or top, of course you're
going to have durability problems. I imagine your wetsuits get pretty
scarred up, too. Yes, I know that it doesn't matter much if a wet suit
gets shredded.

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex socks)

and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is
~$30-$35. Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of
frequent use.

Four seasons without stretching at all, eh?

Yup. At the end of the forth season on my current suit, the seals
finally started showing signs of degredation and needed to be replaced.
That's with 7-8 months of use per year.

BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than
the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting
there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money.

Is this a joke or something? Who takes time off from work to fix their
dry suit seals? Be serious.

Also, it also
takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket
replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the
latex meets the breathable material.

That's what happens when you abuse them, let them go too long and wait
for a catastrophic failure before replacing them. When they start to
loosen up, it means that they're starting to fail. If that's happening
prematurely to your seals, you need to examine your care and maintenance
practices.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed
when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside
your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can
also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with
a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the
stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear
along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water
started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's
story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have
an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason.

I agree that keeping them covered is a very good idea. Again, who said
otherwise?

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by
their virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their
suit after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.


All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed
such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my
wetsuit at below freezing temperatures.

Then don't buy one. But don't try to tell me or anyone else that it's
not a hell of a lot more comfortable than a wetsuit, both in use and
when donning and doffing the suit. Then again, if you haven't worn one,
you wouldn't know.

It's funny, whenever I get into a wetsuit vs. dry suit debate, it
ultimately comes down to a matter of money. Every one of the
anti-drysuit types I've encountered has been looking for a way to
justify not spending the extra money.

I agree with you that if you're going to beat the hell out of your
immersion gear, neoprene is more durable, or at least it will maintain
its meager insulation value when it gets shredded. That would make it a
better investment, since it's less costly to replace neoprene than
Gore-Tex.

On the other hand, if you take reasonable care of your immersion gear
and particularly if you're a sea kayaker, there's no comparison. Dry
suits win hands-down. The provide better comfort in use, better freedom
of movement, more versatility in adapting to weather conditions and
greater comfort at the end of the day when you take it off, among other
things.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply
a durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few
people who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably
more durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might
expect, the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a
difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does,
their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much
time upside-down or dripping wet. :-)

True.