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Brian Nystrom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote: On 11-Jan-2005, "sparks" wrote: .. Sparks, if you can't afford proper immersion clothing for the conditions, stay off the water. Cold water is not the place for bravado and bluster. It's a very unforgiving environment that must be treated with respect. Sure, people get away with pushing their luck, just as with many other activities. However, you could just as easily be the one that doesn't get away with it. IMO, it's not worth it. Save your money and buy a dry suit on sale in the spring. You'll still need it until the water warms up, anyway. Sparks, I have been following this discussion, and reread the responses. Basically I think what it comes down to is that each has their own threshold tolerance for wet, windy, cold, latex, neoprene, zippers, etc. What you might think about doing is this - Don your prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times, and then run back and set in the car/PU, with heater running, and a nice warm cup of coffee. Like Brian says, you may not take any more convincing to wait for a nice spring day! On the other hand, if you are having a good time, and remember your doing this for the fun of it. And your wetsuit is comfortably cold, and like MikeD and Wilko, you can't wait to get in your boat, then go the next step. Take your boat down to the water this time and do a wet entry after again getting all wet and standing in the water for 5 minutes. No seal launches, no buffs. Just a complete wet entry. If it doesn't happen, get out of the water and back in the warm vehicle, more warm coffee. If it happens, go for a short paddle, and return to start, wet exit, and start over. Remember you are probably doing this in a relatively protected area when well rested. So many incidents occur after jumping in a boat, paddling way out from shore, or down a river run, and all of a sudden your tired and the waves and the wind get to kicking up, and the warm car/PU is a long ways away. And all you can think of is the warm Coffee. Which reminds me, about all that coffee! That is why the relief zipper is so important and that it work smoothly!! :=) TnT |
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits. Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable. Wilko I am with you on this one! Bare is basically saying that come a liability suit, They have announced to the world, that they would not be liable for a kayaker being injured or worse, while wearing a drysuit, since they do not approve use of their drysuit while kayaking. Drysuits were designed for diving where the diver has a breathing apparatus, and goes through intense certification in order to dive, and the equipment is constantly scrutinized for mtce requirements. The crossover application is not approved by Bare. I realize there are now dedicated kayaking drysuits, but that does not change the basic technology. The elimination of vent valves, does not make them inherantly safer. And I would wonder what the manufactures liability would be if challenged in court after an accident. I am a newbie to all this, and at one point considered getting a drysuit. The mystic of going out in cold water, and rolling the kayak like an Eskimo is powerful motivator for getting a drysuit. However, upon further consideration, just because I can afford the technology, does not mean I have any business buying a drysuit and putting myself in a life treating situation that requires it. There is alot more training and experience that I should gain before that day. The use of a wetsuit is self regulating in that it is a passive device that works to a certain temperature no matter the expertise of the paddler, or the general condition of the suit. If it is to cold for the wetsuit, the paddler should stay out of the water. It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a discussion of the merits of the two systems. But by recognizing the limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT |
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp ... Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a tad different than those worn paddling? Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA Guns don't kill people, religions do |
Tinkerntom wrote:
Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling experience. I found this article which was originally released as a white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking community. http://tinyurl.com/6wozp Bare position is that the Drysuit does not belong in a kayak. Even though it gives more cold water protection, it also requires more maintenance and training, which the recreational kayaker is probably not prepared to provide. Granted, there are high performance expert kayakers who can benefit from the higher performance, but the high performance is trumped by the higher risk inherant in drysuits. Tink, The drysuit has been used for a lot of years by kayakers. If you go back to Dowd's first edition of his book, he actually recommends them for exactly the conditions we've been discussing. The diving drysuit, however, is a bit different from the immersion suit a kayaker would use, in both materials and requirements. Diving, remember, involves connecting the suit to your air supply and adjusting bouyancy by adding or leaking air from the suit. These valves, as you point out, would not exist on the equipment you'd use as a kayker and training in their use is pointless. What does remain the same, however, is the basics of how the suit works. The insulation is provided by the clothes you wear. The integrity of the suit and its seals are critical and less likely to be compromised by a sea kayaker than a river kayaker. Use of a dry suit by a river runner would, most likely, create additional risks (since its bulky nature would lead to severe disadvantages in running water and once torn, it would be a huge danger). For this reason, I can see the manufacturer suggesting that they not be used to run rivers. These risks are negligible for a sea kayaker. Especially consider that many rec paddlers would use the drysuit in conditions that don't require the greater cold water protection, just to stay dry and comfortable, and the risk is even more unjustifiable. Wilko I am with you on this one! As far as cost is concerned, I agree. Were I to go paddling on one of the great lakes in winter, however, I would definitely wear same. ....stuff deleted It seems to me for someone like me, a newbie, and I don't know Sparks experience, that you experts should answer his question, not with a discussion of the merits of the two systems. But by recognizing the limits and aknowledging the risks involved in extreme cold water paddling, and kill the Mystic. Just my two cents worth. TnT Valid point. I am concerned, first and foremost, with giving advice that falls on the safer side of the situation. Some disagree with me on that, which is fine. This is probably more a difference between the nature of sea kayakers and their WW bretheren. Having done some of both, I realize that sea kayakers have different expectations of their equipment. Sea kayerks expect to be in the water in an emergency situation for an extended period of time (weather that defeats your skills will last for many hours, but the conditions of a river tend to change much more quickly. In a drysuit, I could float in the 45F-55F water here for 24 hours. That degree of protecation from cold can be critical. In a wet suit (3mm farmer john - a denser suit is too restrictive for long term paddling), 2 hours is about the limit for thermal protection for most in those conditions. This may be woefully inadequate for some. I've used my wetsuit(s) for many years now. Perhaps some folks have suits that perform better than either of mine. Great from them. My suits, however, offer virtually no protection from wind. When wet, they are great. When dry in cold wind, they are virtually useless. I base my recommendations on these criteria. The criteria on which we base our decisions do, at times, need to be explained. I made no effort to do this in my previous post(s). For this, I apologize. I still stand by my recommendation that a dry suit is required for the conditions described. I am, by no means, critical of those who recommended otherwise. As I point out, from their perspective, I probably come off as a bit of a wimp. So it goes. Rick |
On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
Don your prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water and go out about 10 ft. and get good and wet. Remember kayaking is a wet water sport. Don't fuss with a boat, or any other gear at this time. You will know in about 5 minutes whether the immersion gear you have is adequate or not. Try swiming, and be sure and get your head under. Check your sudden gasp response. Do this about 3 times, If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea kayaker could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was paddling in such conditions. If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you _will_ get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a swim, then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone. Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives the degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue quickly assuming my roll fails. The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over fleece - what's the big deal? In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the fabric might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source is low. The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon. My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of. The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions keep the fools off the water. Mike |
Michael Daly wrote:
On 14-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote: Don your prospective gear, and go run up and down the shore, and do some good aerobic excercises, work up a sweat. Then get in the water ... snip If this little test in any way represents the conditions that a sea kayaker could reasonably expect while paddling, the mistake they made was paddling in such conditions. If you choose to paddle during the winter in conditions where you _will_ get seriously wet and/or are at significant risk of capsize and a swim, then you clearly should not be allowed out of the house alone. Most of us check the weather before going out. If the conditions are acceptable, then we go. Under these conditions, I have _never_, ever capsized in all my years of paddling. Not once. So, the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition. Furthermore, if I go alone, I will only wear a drysuit, since only a drysuit gives the degree of protection that suits solo paddling. A wetsuit will not provide enough protection unless it is so bulky that it can't be paddled in. If I paddle with the usual gang, I might wear a farmer john and drytop, since I know they can provide an assisted rescue quickly assuming my roll fails. The claims that drysuits are bulky are nonsense. They are no more difficult to move in than any other winter clothing. Gore-tex over fleece - what's the big deal? In your other post, you point out that there is a risk that the fabric might tear. Not likely. I wear Gore-tex clothing almost year round when hiking, skiing and other sports. I put that stuff through a lot of abuse and can't remember ever tearing Gore-Tex. The seals are the weak point, but inspecting them is a good preventative measure. If your suit has Gore-tex or neoprene protection over the seals, as some good paddling suits have, the risk of a tear from an external source is low. The seals on my drysuit are 6 years old and should be replaced soon. My drytop is about 8 years old and in much better shape. They can last a reasonable amount of time if taken care of. The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your gear. If you focus on that and make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control. Winter paddling can be riskier than summer paddling, but you don't hear about paddling incidents in the winter. That's probably because the winter conditions keep the fools off the water. Mike That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme cold water conditions. "The risks are from the weather and water conditions, not from your gear." That again is the point, as a newbie it is easy to talk about a particular piece of gear. If I have a drysuit, then the weather and water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions, only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment. However, if I get in the water, and have to face the facts as to how cold it is and the limits of my gear to keep me warm, and the likelyhood of my being unable to handle the specific paddling environment, then I may be more inclined to stay home as you recommend, or at least not be allowed out alone. Bravado gets cold real fast! I appreciate MikeD that you are also an accomplished paddler, so the content of the white page is probably not aimed at you. But the newbie that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way. Besides having a reasonably bombproof roll or all the other skills and gear that make for safe paddling. I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition." If you mean that, as it is unlikely to snow in the summer, but we have all probably heard of this happening. In fact, the very situation where a newbie wears a drysuit, is where the undesirable scenario is likely to happen. This as you point out, could just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes himself to an unnecessary elevated risk! And if a likely or unlikely incident does occur, you had better know that your life support system is adequate! So yeah, I think this little test with all its limitations is at least a start. If a kayaker or their gear, cannot pass this test, it is very doubtful that they would pass a real test at sea or down the river. IMHO, I need to stay home till it warms a bit this Spring. My bravado has cold feet. TnT |
On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:
That is one big focus, "make sure you are prepared, the risks are easy to control"??? The problem is that as a newbie am I trully capable of assessing the risk, and being properly prepared? to go out in extreme cold water conditions. My first paragraph addressed the issue of "extreme" conditions. The only thing different about winter paddling should be the temperature - that's not extreme. If you insist on paddling in extreme conditions, you deserve what you get. Sparky asked for advice - I assume that he therefore has enough interest in safe winter paddling to study the situation. If he does this and still makes an error in risk assessment, and he has heeded other guidelines (not paddling alone, carrying emergency gear, staying a reasonable distance from shore etc) a failure is not likely to be deadly. It's just a learning experience. If I have a drysuit, then the weather and water conditions are no longer a concern. And to suggest that if I have a drysuit, I now have clearance to paddle solo in critical conditions, only adds to the dangerous lack of proper risk assesment. No one has suggested that. I said specifically that the gear is not the risk - it's the weather and water. But the newbie that dons a drysuit and paddles off on a new adventure, is likely the same one who does not check the weather, or that the seals are all good, or there is not a tear in the drysuit that they got on eBay for a bargain, or that the zipper is closed all the way. That's not a newbie, that's a fool. We're not saying that there should be billboards advertising that anyone that wears a drysuit is ultimately safe and should paddle all winter. We're saying that immersion protection is a first step. We've also added other bits of advice concerning conditions and preparedness. I disagree with you, that "the cold weather gear is to protect against an unlikely condition." If I've paddled for years and _never_ capsized, how does a capsize become a likely condition? This as you point out, could just as likely be during a season when the water is warm enough that wearing a drysuit is not required, and by so doing, the newbie exposes himself to an unnecessary elevated risk! Fact of life - most paddlers are out in the summer and hypothermia kills more than drowing. Risk management in paddling is not a seasonal thing. Lots of people paddle in the winter and survive. Some of us cross- country ski in the winter, kilometers from a shelter, wearing little more than long underwear and skin-tight Lycra clothing. We don't die of hypothermia every day. We sleep in snow shelters winter camping and survive. We swim in arctic rivers in winter and then hop into a sauna and survive (photo at link taken by me in Finland a couple of years ago - 150km north of the Arctic Circle). http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/images/crazyAmie.jpg The kayak was invented in the environment that you seem to fear. Those of us that live in winter, rather than hiding indoors, learn to accept and deal with the risk and enjoy life. Mike |
On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:
Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life? It's definitely not bravado for me. The only way to survive here in the Great White North is to learn to love the winter. After all, it happens every year. Winter weather is _not_ extreme - it's normal. You learn to deal with it or you suffer. I know lots of folks who complain about the winter. Personally, I'm one of those that loves it. If you condition yourself to the weather by living in it, it is easy to deal with. Winter carnivals are common here - Quebec City's is famous (complete with an ice hotel - yes, you can stay overnight in a hotel made entirely of ice). Ottawa has Winterlude - two weeks of fun in the snow - there's nothing like skating on a 7km long canal. We celebrate the season. Kayaking in the winter is just one more way to enjoy the season. Yes, paddling while it is snowing is something special - the silence and whiteness is something few experience. My family tree goes back hundreds of years in this country, with one branch going back thousands. The winter is in my blood - like the Gilles Vigneault song goes: "Mon pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver" or in English: "My country it is not a country, it is the winter" (Full lyrics he http://languageproject.com/english/canada_eng.htm) The earliest I've paddled is Jan 1. The latest is Dec 23. Life is to be enjoyed. Mike |
Michael Daly wrote: On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote: Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life? It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP. Sparks wrote: "Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking. This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana ...pretty chilly right now). " ...snip Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going paddling at this time and under these conditions. If he is concerned about paying $400 for a drysuit, what other preparation is too much? Are his friends equally unprepared? What a terrible way to end a bunch of friendships in a cold water incident, that we would all discuss later on the forum, about how unnecessary and stupid it all was! Melissa, I too understand the spiritual mystery of the winter solace. I am new to paddling, but have enjoyed many solitary backcountry ski trips spending the night in a tent or snow cave. I have heard the snow fall with soft thuds. But when I go out it is with full survival gear. Not as recently here in Colorado (you may have seen in the news), a supposedly experienced backcountry skier took his wife and daughter into the Grand Mesa without even matches. They have yet to find him, after he went for help, leaving them in a snow cave. They survived and were rescued but with what mental and emotional truama for the rest of their lives. All for a short fun afternoon of BC skiing. Also in the news, the out of bound skiers in Utah, who thougth the rules did not apply to them. They apparently forgot that avalache kill! I have seen the bravado of usually young skiers and boarders as they slip under the boundry ropes. No preparation for survival, no notification to anyone of where they are going, just a go-for-the-gusto attitude. I have helped find and pull their bodies out of the avalanche. Melissa, I love your crazy attitude about being fortunate to be alive. But I suspect that it is tempered with experience and not just go-for-the-gusto. I think that you and MikeD both appreciate life, and I envy you the multitude of paddling experiences and opportunities you have up in the great north country. To Be able to go out in the winter must be marvelous, and I desire in no way to disparage your joy. But as a newbie to paddling I am going slow, and encourage other newbies to be careful out there. It is a cold wet world out there that can suck the life right out of you. For you Melissa I will sign off as I use to, for I also appreciate life! Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
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