Tinkerntom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:

On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:

Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life?

It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip

MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to
MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP.

Sparks wrote:
"Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana
..pretty chilly right now). " ...snip

Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear
preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds
like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going
paddling at this time and under these conditions.

Excuse me? Bravado? Sparks has kayaked in warmer weather and now asks
for some advice about winter kayaking and that's "newbie bravado?"
Bravado is going out with ignorant confidence (or confident ignorance)
into sketchy conditions, not sitting in a warm house and asking for advice.

Steve

Galen Hekhuis wrote:
On 14 Jan 2005 18:04:32 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Brian and Wilko, you both represent alot of diverse paddling
experience. I found this article which was originally released as a
white page news brief by Bare, significant for the kayaking
community.

http://tinyurl.com/6wozp
...

Am I alone in thinking that the drysuits worn for diving are just a
tad
different than those worn paddling?

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA

Guns don't kill people, religions do


Galen, you are definitely correct about there being dedicated kayak
drysuits. Some even designed and worn by dedicated kayakers. The
problem as I understand it is that the basic technology is the same. A
watertight human container which would normally incorporate insulating
layers for the purpose of keeping you drier and hence warmer in extreme
cold water. Apart from the bouyancy factor used by divers, there are
not a lot of basic differences in the technology.

The primary risk is maintaining the watertight characteristic. A breach
of the seals, zipper, or basic material could be fatal. The Bare
statement could just be a CYA, but the issues should be considered by
the kayaking community at large, and by the individual that is
considering using a drysuit in the kayaking environment. Obviously we
each have to make our own decision, and I would not want to see any
sort of required certification process in the practice of our sport of
choice - Kayaking.TnT

Steve, in my previous post I acknowledge that Sparks made no mention of
his paddling experience, except to say that this would be the first
time in cold water. He could very well be a very experienced expert
paddler in warmer water, and this may be why he even bothered to post
his question, because he recognizes his lack of experience in cold
water. That is a wise newbie, but still a newbie to cold water.

It would be bravado if knowing the water is cold, he proceeded with his
plans without making the proper preparations, skill-wise and gear-wise.
I would not want to ever discourage someone from asking any question
but it is not sufficient just to ask questions, but heed the answers
offered by those who have gone before. Lord knows that I have ask
plenty of dumb questions.

He may heed those answers and have a wonderful fulfilling trip, and I
would wish him well. I would love to hear a trip report when he is
back, and appreciate his pictures. That for the time being is the
closest I can come to such a trip, and suragocy sucks, but its better
than nothing. TnT

Rick, I agree that to err on the side of safety is preferable. I also
tend to be a major gear freak, there is never enough toys. However I
also like to know the limits of my gear, and how to properly use them.
Survival is a frame of mind where you know that ultimately it is up to
you to use your gear to achieve your goal. Hopefully most of our goals
are to have a good time, and not suffer an injury that would spoil the
fun.

Most of the kayakers I have met here trully enjoy the experience, and
are not just doing it for bravado. So I have to be careful that I am
not preaching to the choir. On the other hand I have found that it is
often wise to stop, step back, and ask myself the question; Why am I
doing this? and sometimes I have even surprised myself. TnT

On 15 Jan 2005 16:47:57 -0800, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Galen, you are definitely correct about there being dedicated kayak
drysuits. Some even designed and worn by dedicated kayakers. The
problem as I understand it is that the basic technology is the same. A
watertight human container which would normally incorporate insulating
layers for the purpose of keeping you drier and hence warmer in extreme
cold water. Apart from the bouyancy factor used by divers, there are
not a lot of basic differences in the technology.

The primary risk is maintaining the watertight characteristic. A breach
of the seals, zipper, or basic material could be fatal. The Bare
statement could just be a CYA, but the issues should be considered by
the kayaking community at large, and by the individual that is
considering using a drysuit in the kayaking environment. Obviously we
each have to make our own decision, and I would not want to see any
sort of required certification process in the practice of our sport of
choice - Kayaking.TnT

Catastrophic failure is just not that common an event even with a diver's
type drysuit. I'm no expert by any means, I paddle the warm Florida waters
only on very calm days and definitely don't poke into any underwater holes.
The cave divers here often spend long times in decompression (I mean long,
it is not at all unheard of for folks to spend hours just decompressing.
The sinks and stuff they climb into are not exactly gentle on whatever is
worn, neither is the underbrush they often hike through (suited up). A
large rip or tear at depth might flood the suit with rather undesirable
results for the diver, but I doubt a rip or tear would cause a kayaker to
come to grief, unless in a sea or lake, in which case a rip or tear would
be rather unlikely, and the (far superior) warmth attainable in a drysuit
might well be needed. I don't think there is a "drysuit certification"
anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive.


Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

I have been reading this thread again, and realize that Sparks on Jan
11 wrote that they had cancelled their paddle plans until warmer
weather, Definitly a wise kayaker! and no bravado there.
I guess I'll have to get my fix from someone else, but thats OK! Tnt

On 15-Jan-2005, Galen Hekhuis wrote:

I don't think there is a "drysuit certification"
anyway, at least I haven't heard of it, but like I say, I don't dive.

There is drysuit certification. Since you use your drysuit instead of
BC for bouyancy control, you have to learn the ins and outs of the
drysuit. There are also issues wrt making sure the air in the drysuit
doesn't go into the legs etc.

BTW dive drysuits that I've seen are much tougher than paddling
suits. They tend to be aimed at pro or very serious divers
(since the average rec diver avoids cold water) and are made
to last.

Mike

On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is a wise newbie, but still a newbie to cold water.

Wise or otherwise, it is impossible to do cold water paddling
without at one point being a newbie. If you're never a newbie,
you'll never be experienced. Telling people to avoid cold
water because they're newbies is nonsense. Better to give them
useful advice and sources of where to learn.

Mike

On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:

You mean you don't paddle between the 24th and the 31st? What's up
with that?! :-)

I take a week off for holidays, family and friends. I figure they
should see me once a year.

Mike

in article , Steve
Cramer at wrote on 1/15/05 7:44 PM:

Tinkerntom wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:

On 15-Jan-2005, Melissa wrote:

Is it bravado? Or can it simply be an appreciation of life?

It's definitely not bravado for me. ...snip

MikeD and Melissa, when I spoke of bravado, I was not referring to
MikeD, but to Sparks and his OP.

Sparks wrote:
"Some friends and I are thinking about doing some winter time kayaking.
This will be the first time we have paddled in the cold water Indiana
..pretty chilly right now). " ...snip

Nothing is mentioned of their skill level, or trip planning and gear
preparation, except to say that it is first time in cold water. Sounds
like newbie bravado to me to think they have any business going
paddling at this time and under these conditions.

Excuse me? Bravado? Sparks has kayaked in warmer weather and now asks
for some advice about winter kayaking and that's "newbie bravado?"
Bravado is going out with ignorant confidence (or confident ignorance)
into sketchy conditions, not sitting in a warm house and asking for advice.

Steve

FYI...Tinkerntom often gives a pill a headache.