On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 21:06:04 -0400, in message

"Roger Long" wrote:

The thing that got me thinking about the smaller, compromize Genoa I had
built was noticing how much faster the boat was to windward with the small
working jib in fresh breezes. The performance difference between the 150%
and the working jib (about a 110% overlap) even in light air and on reaches
was much less than the difference in sail area would indicate.

I don't know about anybody else, but my racing bias tends towards too
much sail. The last couple of weeks we went cruising with the cocktail
jib (about 115% with a really high clew) on the furler. As best I
could tell, the speed penalty was 10 or 15 percent and 3 or 5 degrees
of point. Based on observing the boats around us, most cruisers don't
seem to care about that.

The really big plus is that you can carry a sail like that well up to
about 25 knots to weather without having to roll it in, and you can do
what we call "cruising tacks" -- slow turns with enough time luffing
to trim without much power grinding.

Ryk

Ryk
My headsail size is determined by the best VMG (not speed) I can get.
Many times a too big sail plan will have too much leeward slip when
going 'up' ... drops VMG catastrophically. Its my belief that the
high end race folks match the SA to the optimum VMG for best
performance upwind and thats why it seems that over the years the
headsails are getting smaller and smaller in LP. Such is also
'easier on the rig' as a BIG LP heasail needs lots of winch pressure
which ultimately reacts to sag off the headstay to leeward, ...
requires more backstay tension, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
:-)

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT), in message

RichH wrote:

Ryk
My headsail size is determined by the best VMG (not speed) I can get.
Many times a too big sail plan will have too much leeward slip when
going 'up' ... drops VMG catastrophically. Its my belief that the
high end race folks match the SA to the optimum VMG for best
performance upwind and thats why it seems that over the years the
headsails are getting smaller and smaller in LP.

The high end race folks go through endless headsail changes to
optimize VMG. Rigs have moved towards smaller headsails and bigger
mains to make it easier to "change gears", as far as I can tell.

Such is also
'easier on the rig' as a BIG LP heasail needs lots of winch pressure
which ultimately reacts to sag off the headstay to leeward, ...
requires more backstay tension, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Easier on the crew as well. My point was that a cruising sail plan can
include a small jib with no practical loss of performance unless
things go really light.

Ryk

:-)

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:16:33 GMT, in message
2008080922163375249-jerelull@maccom
Jere Lull wrote:

On 2008-08-09 09:34:28 -0400, Gogarty said:

I also have a Harken. Came with the boat, which is now 27 years old.
Works very well most of the time except when the wind gets over 20 and
you can't blanket it behind the main. Even a flogging jib at that wind
speed is a heavy load.

Try working on straightening the lead of the furling line. It's amazing
how much drag an extra block or too-wide angle can add.

Also take care to control the furling line on the roll-out -- it will
feed into the drum much more neatly with a little tension and be much
easier to roll up later.

Ryk

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 15:46:23 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom...

It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim
and geometry.

I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge
rudder for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather
helm.

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Sounds like you're well heeled already! (I mean understanding what's what...
sorry, stupid pun.)


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:09:07 -0400, in message

"Roger Long" wrote:

"RichH" wrote

If possible, I only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id
rather 'jug
it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is much
much less. :-)

That's what I'm doing. I've got enough on board to motor for 75% of my
planned route so I shouldn't need to re-fuel this cruise.

On a twentyfive litre jug and a twenty cent a litre premium, that's
five bucks a jug, or about a buck an hour to run my Atomic 4, making
the convenience of a marina fill-up one of the cheapest things I can
buy for the boat.

As for fuel freshness, our gas dock clears the tanks in about a week.

Ryk

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:22:54 -0500, in message
lutions
lid (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:51:51 -0700 (PDT), RichH said:

A headsail on a 'furler' can only be reduced by 30% SA and still
retain any good shape. Beyond 30% reduction and you wind up with a
'BAG" shape instead of a usable sail shape for any 'upwind' work.
135 X .70 = 95% So, you can reduce a 135 down to a 'working
jib' (100%) size without shape problems. A 150 can usually only be
reduced to a 105, et

That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a
second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in.

Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.

It really depends on the rig dimensions. In less than 20 knots on my
Hughes 35 (masthead, large foretriangle, short boom) the heavy one
(135%) with no main at all is well balanced.

Ryk

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:12:52 GMT, in message
2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom
Jere Lull wrote:

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

I think the 28 rudder was the same shape as the original Tanzer 26
rudder, with the same problem. Did you build yours based on the T26
changes, or just common sense? I actually liked the load on the old
T26 rudder, as the main sheet in one hand (6:1) and the tiller in the
other balanced.

Ryk

On 2008-08-13 13:35:59 -0400, Ryk said:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:16:33 GMT, in message
2008080922163375249-jerelull@maccom
Jere Lull wrote:

On 2008-08-09 09:34:28 -0400, Gogarty said:

I also have a Harken. Came with the boat, which is now 27 years old.
Works very well most of the time except when the wind gets over 20 and
you can't blanket it behind the main. Even a flogging jib at that wind
speed is a heavy load.

Try working on straightening the lead of the furling line. It's amazing
how much drag an extra block or too-wide angle can add.

Also take care to control the furling line on the roll-out -- it will
feed into the drum much more neatly with a little tension and be much
easier to roll up later.

That's a subject I intentionally left out. Since I use a small spare
winch as my snubber, it's easy to use it to control furling line line
tension. It's so lovely to watch the furling line wind up and down the
drum tightly as the sail pulls itself out.

Oh, GAWD, what a mess I've seen when the furling line randomly wound
up. Couldn't let the sail fully out as the line filled up the available
space too quickly. When hauling in, the line slipped under previous
wraps, making it impossible to furl the sail again.

I doubt anyone will make that particular mistake twice. It can make for
an entirely too-busy afternoon.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On 2008-08-13 14:02:21 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

Jere Lull

Sounds like you're well heeled already! (I mean understanding what's
what... sorry, stupid pun.)

No problem. I was hunting for a different pun, but yours is a good
alternative and a nice compliment at the same time ;-)

Thanks for that.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/