On 2008-08-13 15:10:20 -0400, Ryk said:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:12:52 GMT, in message
2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom
Jere Lull wrote:

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

I think the 28 rudder was the same shape as the original Tanzer 26
rudder, with the same problem. Did you build yours based on the T26
changes, or just common sense? I actually liked the load on the old
T26 rudder, as the main sheet in one hand (6:1) and the tiller in the
other balanced.

Ryk

Johanne Tanzer gave all his boats about the same rudder, so the problem
was endemic amongst the fleets.

When I built our replacement about 15 seasons back, I only had the T22
"new" class rudder and NACA 0012 foil as patterns, so I guess my answer
would be "common sense". The 26 rudder came later, as I recall. I
didn't move our leading edge forward in the first incarnation, so found
a need to re-do the blade to add balance. I screwed up the construction
at the time, so had problems with expansion and cracks most years since.

Just this spring, I finally got an IdaSailor blade. It's obviously a
relative to what I and Rik Hall created years back, closer to mine than
Rik's, as it happens, but I believe they built it too deep. I may chop
about a half foot off between seasons as we've more than necessary
authority.

While I could probably comfortably sail Xan with the old rudder for
short times in moderate conditions, my wife had difficulty pushing it
while we were motoring. It took a LOT of effort to push the tiller over
even when we were flat.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Aug 9, 8:10 am, "Edgar" wrote:
....
My boat came with a nearly new Profurl system which has been entirely
satisfactory and easy to use. The foil cames with two grooves so
theoretically you can hoist one sail before you lower the other as I have
several extra halliards. ...

But not when using the "furling" option. If you have a furling sail
up it will be attached to the swivel and if you hoist a new sail
before lowering the old you will not be able to lower the swivel or
the old sail... There may be other justifications for dual slots
(twin headsails for trade wind sailing, redundancy, or racing sail
changes when the swivel (and therefore the furling) is not used) but
they aren't for changing sails when cruising.

-- Tom.

On Aug 10, 3:42 pm, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:
In article ,



wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:38:55 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Sounds like your cockpit is arranged quite a bit differently than mine. I'm
always using my jib winch when furling because I run a single turn of the
sheet around it to get a nice tight furl.

I can't see anything wrong with the way you are doing it though. The key
point is to have some "feel" which swigging provides. Too easy to over pull
with a winch. I was just looking at a broken Harken torque tube a couple
days ago.

Harken says that if you need to use a winch to furl, there is
something wrong with either your setup or your technique.

I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter
furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a
winch.

Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers.

I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts. It's odd that there would be that much on the furling line.

Boat size, sail size, wind speed and fear all factor into this at some
level. The wind speed issue is big as the loads vary with V^2. Above
around 35' feet and/or offshore I'd strongly recommend that the
furling line have a fair lead to a free winch. I like Harken gear but
one of the reasons I don't use one of their furlers on my offshore
cruiser is that putting the furling line on a winch voids their
warranty. Profurl, Sailrite and several others specifically allow the
use of winches for furling and that is a good thing in my book.

-- Tom.

wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 3:42 pm, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:
In article ,



wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:38:55 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Sounds like your cockpit is arranged quite a bit differently than mine.
I'm
always using my jib winch when furling because I run a single turn of
the
sheet around it to get a nice tight furl.

I can't see anything wrong with the way you are doing it though. The
key
point is to have some "feel" which swigging provides. Too easy to over
pull
with a winch. I was just looking at a broken Harken torque tube a
couple
days ago.

Harken says that if you need to use a winch to furl, there is
something wrong with either your setup or your technique.

I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter
furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a
winch.

Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers.

I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts.
It's odd that there would be that much on the furling line.

Boat size, sail size, wind speed and fear all factor into this at some
level. The wind speed issue is big as the loads vary with V^2. Above
around 35' feet and/or offshore I'd strongly recommend that the
furling line have a fair lead to a free winch. I like Harken gear but
one of the reasons I don't use one of their furlers on my offshore
cruiser is that putting the furling line on a winch voids their
warranty. Profurl, Sailrite and several others specifically allow the
use of winches for furling and that is a good thing in my book.

-- Tom.


I don't know if Schaefer allows it or not, but with the small jib I use,
it's never been an issue. The worst case is that the sail gets furled a bit
too tight to completely roll up, but that's easily fixed at the next
opportunity. I currently have the furling line lead through one of my spin
blocks, which I'm not using. It's directly positioned to use winch, so I
suppose I have that option.

Been sailing lately or are you still fixing stuff?


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Aug 9, 8:10 am, "Edgar" wrote:
...
My boat came with a nearly new Profurl system which has been entirely
satisfactory and easy to use. The foil cames with two grooves so
theoretically you can hoist one sail before you lower the other as I have
several extra halliards. ...

But not when using the "furling" option. If you have a furling sail
up it will be attached to the swivel and if you hoist a new sail
before lowering the old you will not be able to lower the swivel or
the old sail... There may be other justifications for dual slots
(twin headsails for trade wind sailing, redundancy, or racing sail
changes when the swivel (and therefore the furling) is not used) but
they aren't for changing sails when cruising.

-- Tom.

Yes that is true of course. My boat came from a racing background and has
several Mylar foresails, all of which fit the grooves. This is all very well
but it needs two peole to handle sail changes as one has to man the
halliards while the other feeds the sail into the foil. I sail with just my
wife for crew so all those racing sails are in the basement at home and I
stick with a 130% dacron genny which is specially designed for the roller.
Even though we only cruise I do not like a slow boat and we hold our own
pretty well with most boats our own size so I am happy.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:04:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 10, 3:42 pm, (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:
In article ,



wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:38:55 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Sounds like your cockpit is arranged quite a bit differently than mine. I'm
always using my jib winch when furling because I run a single turn of the
sheet around it to get a nice tight furl.

I can't see anything wrong with the way you are doing it though. The key
point is to have some "feel" which swigging provides. Too easy to over pull
with a winch. I was just looking at a broken Harken torque tube a couple
days ago.

Harken says that if you need to use a winch to furl, there is
something wrong with either your setup or your technique.

I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter
furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a
winch.

Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers.

I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts. It's odd that there would be that much on the furling line.

Boat size, sail size, wind speed and fear all factor into this at some
level. The wind speed issue is big as the loads vary with V^2. Above
around 35' feet and/or offshore I'd strongly recommend that the
furling line have a fair lead to a free winch. I like Harken gear but
one of the reasons I don't use one of their furlers on my offshore
cruiser is that putting the furling line on a winch voids their
warranty. Profurl, Sailrite and several others specifically allow the
use of winches for furling and that is a good thing in my book.

Some reason a furler couldn't have a shear pin like an outboard motor?
Combine harvesters have a not very strong piece of lumber, about 1x2,
in the drive to the harvesting mechanism. Jam it and the board breaks,
instead of steel bending. The concept is widely known.

Casady

On Aug 20, 2:24 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
....
Been sailing lately or are you still fixing stuff?

Well, yes... We sailed to Napa and fixed stuff and then sailed to
Vallejo and fixed stuff and then to Richmond (KKMI) and fixed stuff.
We've also sailed around in the bay a little not fixing stuff, but
that almost felt like cheating. We just got back from KKMI this
morning and the jib is still on the forestay but I think we're going
to be here at least until Monday so I'll drop it and bag it this
afternoon. We'll be fixing stuff while we're here. We're not quite
sure when we're going to start heading South but I think that we're a
few weeks away yet; there's no chance that we will have fixed all the
stuff on the list by then...

-- Tom.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:38:43 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Aug 9, 8:10 am, "Edgar" wrote:
...
My boat came with a nearly new Profurl system which has been entirely
satisfactory and easy to use. The foil cames with two grooves so
theoretically you can hoist one sail before you lower the other as I have
several extra halliards. ...

But not when using the "furling" option. If you have a furling sail
up it will be attached to the swivel and if you hoist a new sail
before lowering the old you will not be able to lower the swivel or
the old sail... There may be other justifications for dual slots
(twin headsails for trade wind sailing, redundancy, or racing sail
changes when the swivel (and therefore the furling) is not used) but
they aren't for changing sails when cruising.

-- Tom.

Yes that is true of course. My boat came from a racing background and has
several Mylar foresails, all of which fit the grooves. This is all very well
but it needs two peole to handle sail changes as one has to man the
halliards while the other feeds the sail into the foil. I sail with just my
wife for crew so all those racing sails are in the basement at home and I
stick with a 130% dacron genny which is specially designed for the roller.
Even though we only cruise I do not like a slow boat and we hold our own
pretty well with most boats our own size so I am happy.


Is there some reason you don't want to use a pre-feeder? I routinely
change sails by myself. I get the sail started in the track, and then
the prefeeder takes care of guiding the rest of the sail in while I
man the halyard. Rarely, I have to stop at some point because the sail
is too twisted on the deck to feed well. Takes but a second to fix
that when it happens, and get back in the cockpit.

My pre-feeder is homemade out of starboard, and splits in two pieces,
held togeter by bolts with wingnuts, in case I ever need to remove it
from the bolt rope while somewhere in the middle of it's length. So
far, I've never used that option.

wrote in message
...
On Aug 20, 2:24 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
...
Been sailing lately or are you still fixing stuff?

Well, yes... We sailed to Napa and fixed stuff and then sailed to
Vallejo and fixed stuff and then to Richmond (KKMI) and fixed stuff.
We've also sailed around in the bay a little not fixing stuff, but
that almost felt like cheating. We just got back from KKMI this
morning and the jib is still on the forestay but I think we're going
to be here at least until Monday so I'll drop it and bag it this
afternoon. We'll be fixing stuff while we're here. We're not quite
sure when we're going to start heading South but I think that we're a
few weeks away yet; there's no chance that we will have fixed all the
stuff on the list by then...

-- Tom.


Seems like everytime I fix something on my list, I add three more items to
the list. LOL

I've always had a good experience with KKMI. They're good people. Right
around the corner from me at Brickyard.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Aug 20, 3:56 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
....
Seems like everytime I fix something on my list, I add three more items to
the list. LOL

By rule, when the list exceeds three pages I throw it out and start a
new list.


I've always had a good experience with KKMI. They're good people. Right
around the corner from me at Brickyard.

I was impressed with them. Their hourly is brutal but I think they
were unusually honest in their billing and they let us stay on their
dock two nights and gave us a bottle of wine. Can't argue with
that.

-- Tom.