"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081202523416807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 01:13:00 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

I was out today in 20 kts with 25 gusts. My boat is fairly well balanced
and
takes minimal effort. It's a masthead rig. We sailed with a small working
jib
and one reef in the main. She would heel, give some slight weather helm,
start
to round up, then correct and get back in the groove without helm
intervention
(or at least not much.. two finger control).

Sounds like you had it right.

I have to tuck in the second reef and flatten the jib hard in those
conditions, as we're a light-air boat with significant weather helm if we
heel too much.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



I feel fortunate to own her. I'd like to claim that it's all my doing, but
the Sabre is very forgiving. At one point, we had the starboard rail in the
water, which is not the way I usually sail, and there was very little
weather helm.

I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps...

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081202564175249-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 01:14:53 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

In article
,
RichH wrote:
Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE
forward.

Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is
usually in front of the mast.

With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee
helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit
of
weather helm vs. lee helm.

As I recall, cutter rigs place the the mast further aft.

What's determines "helm" is the balance among the CEs of the sails, keel,
and hull.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Yes, I think I recall that also... that would account for a lot of it.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"RichH" wrote in message
...
With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee
helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit
of
weather helm vs. lee helm.

On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is
further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the
CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and
can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or
all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when
heeled etc.


Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I
mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?)

Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as
possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true
or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of
ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of
cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose) cutter.
Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both).

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On *most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is
further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the
CLR ..... * But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and
can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or
all vectors). * All depends on the design and how it performs when
heeled etc.

Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I
mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?)

Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as
possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true
or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of
ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of
cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose) cutter.
Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both).


Roger can elaborate but most sailboats actually are set up with some
LEE HELM vs. the static CE/CLR position .... as the curvature of the
sides of the hull and 'entry angle of the bow' (fine bow versus full/
power bow shape), etc. will additionally create the rest of the
'dynamic balance' especially when the boat is heeled and moving
forward at speed.

In any 'balance', I usually always initially shape the sails to obtain
a 'dead fish' neutral helm, then back off (on halyard/cunningham,
etc.) so that I get the absolute barest of 'weather helm'. This
allows the rudder to not drag through the water (2-3 degress of
rudder), the rudder helping to support the side loads (slip) and share
some of the work of the keel ..... and wind up with the fastest
possible speed and the highest possible 'lift to windward' out of the
keel - using the keel (NACA-010 etc.) as a lifting foil... all for
racing or efficient long distance sailing/cruising.

I'd like to hear about that. It was my (perhaps wrong) understanding that
most sailboats have slight weather helm with the sails up.

This is also odd because the technique of lying ahull, according to what you
describe about lee helm, would mean that a boat in such a position would be
stern to the weather. I don't think that's the case, but I've never lay
ahull in a storm.

"RichH" wrote in message
...

On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is
further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the
CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and
can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or
all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when
heeled etc.

Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I
mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?)

Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as
possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true
or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of
ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of
cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose)
cutter.
Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both).


Roger can elaborate but most sailboats actually are set up with some
LEE HELM vs. the static CE/CLR position .... as the curvature of the
sides of the hull and 'entry angle of the bow' (fine bow versus full/
power bow shape), etc. will additionally create the rest of the
'dynamic balance' especially when the boat is heeled and moving
forward at speed.

In any 'balance', I usually always initially shape the sails to obtain
a 'dead fish' neutral helm, then back off (on halyard/cunningham,
etc.) so that I get the absolute barest of 'weather helm'. This
allows the rudder to not drag through the water (2-3 degress of
rudder), the rudder helping to support the side loads (slip) and share
some of the work of the keel ..... and wind up with the fastest
possible speed and the highest possible 'lift to windward' out of the
keel - using the keel (NACA-010 etc.) as a lifting foil... all for
racing or efficient long distance sailing/cruising.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2008-08-12 13:05:50 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps...

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482

It's

not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and geometry.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:32:55 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I'd like to hear about that. It was my (perhaps wrong) understanding that
most sailboats have slight weather helm with the sails up.


decrease the mast rake, and you can decrease weather helm.

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 13:05:50 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps...

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482

It's

not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and
geometry.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge rudder
for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather helm.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:32:55 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I'd like to hear about that. It was my (perhaps wrong) understanding that
most sailboats have slight weather helm with the sails up.


decrease the mast rake, and you can decrease weather helm.




Yes, but I think he was talking about hull shape and bow shape.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2008-08-12 15:46:23 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom...

It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim
and geometry.

I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge
rudder for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather
helm.

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/