On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:42:22 -0500, lid (Jonathan
Ganz) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:38:55 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Sounds like your cockpit is arranged quite a bit differently than mine. I'm
always using my jib winch when furling because I run a single turn of the
sheet around it to get a nice tight furl.

I can't see anything wrong with the way you are doing it though. The key
point is to have some "feel" which swigging provides. Too easy to over pull
with a winch. I was just looking at a broken Harken torque tube a couple
days ago.

Harken says that if you need to use a winch to furl, there is
something wrong with either your setup or your technique.

I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter
furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a
winch.

Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers.

I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts. It's odd that there would be that much on the furling line.

When the wind suddenly pipes up, my 170% genoa can be a bear to wind
up. That's where heavy gloves come in handy. If I seem to be having
more trouble than normal, I immediately check to see if I've neglected
something, such as the backstay adjuster, or an over tight halyard.
I've always avoided using the winch, because the manufacturer said
that was a bad thing to do and should never be necessary of everythng
is setup and adjusted properly.

In article ,
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:42:22 -0500, lid (Jonathan
Ganz) wrote:
I find I have to use heavily padded gloves for that small diameter
furling line when the wind is up, but never had to resort to using a
winch.

Schaefer says the same thing, as do all the people I know with furlers.

I've never had to use more than regular effort to furl, even in 20kts. It's odd that there would be that much
on the furling line.

When the wind suddenly pipes up, my 170% genoa can be a bear to wind
up. That's where heavy gloves come in handy. If I seem to be having
more trouble than normal, I immediately check to see if I've neglected
something, such as the backstay adjuster, or an over tight halyard.
I've always avoided using the winch, because the manufacturer said
that was a bad thing to do and should never be necessary of everythng
is setup and adjusted properly.

Ah.. 170. Yeah, that might be a tad harder than my small, working jib.

Roger implies the limits of ***function**** of headsail furlers.

A headsail on a 'furler' can only be reduced by 30% SA and still
retain any good shape. Beyond 30% reduction and you wind up with a
'BAG" shape instead of a usable sail shape for any 'upwind' work.
135 X .70 = 95% So, you can reduce a 135 down to a 'working
jib' (100%) size without shape problems. A 150 can usually only be
reduced to a 105, etc.

A furler usually cannot tolerate heavy luff loads, as would be
necessary to change the luff entry shape (the 'forward curve shape' at
the luff) of a jib/genoa; crank on luff tension to a furler with a
halyard and to *Jam*. ..... probably the prime reason that you'll
never ever see a genoa/jib furler on a serious racing boat.

My impression is that most 'kroozers' dont know (or care) how to
'shape' sails ... as one hardly ever sees a 'kroozer' without a
furler.

So Roger, put your working jib back on board when travelling as your
can roll that puppy down to a 70% sail.

Same arguments apply to mainsail furlers - sail shape.

On 2008-08-11 00:51:51 -0400, RichH said:

A furler usually cannot tolerate heavy luff loads

Excuse me?

It's been years since any "modern" furler design failed for merely luff loads.

The strains on a furler decrease dramatically as the sail is furled.

Even the baggiest furled-size 110 won't strain a foil nearly as much as
a real 110.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"RichH" wrote

A furler usually cannot tolerate heavy luff loads, as would be
necessary to change the luff entry shape (the 'forward curve shape' at
the luff) of a jib/genoa; crank on luff tension to a furler with a
halyard and to *Jam*. ..... probably the prime reason that you'll
never ever see a genoa/jib furler on a serious racing boat.

This somewhat depends on halyard geometry. You see some setups where the
halyard leads at an angle from the foil. This is good for minimizing
halyard wraps but pulls the end of the foil against the stay. My halyard is
pretty much in line with the stay but short so no wrap problems or strain.
I get pretty good halyard tension with my rather unusual jib halyard
arrangement. The halyard cleat is on a track with a strong tackle that
hauls it down the mast and the fall led back to the cockpit. I had not
trouble rolling with good tension last year. The sailmaker recommended that
I release the tension on my new sail before stowing to preserve the shape so
this arrangment has proven quite convienient. I occasionally forget to
de-tension the halyard and have not noticed any difference in furling force.
I did work a good gop of Teflon grease down into the end of the foil before
putting the rig up this year and have my foil adjusted so the end runs on
the terminal swage sleeve.

So Roger, put your working jib back on board when travelling as your
can roll that puppy down to a 70% sail.

The shape of my new Genoa is pretty good at about 70% size. I had luff foam
put in which I'm told has gone out of style but does seem to do a good job
of increasing the amount that can be rolled up. I will probably switch to
the working jib if knowingly facing a long beat in 25 knot plus conditions
but I wouldn't make the switch just for traveling. With the third reef I
had put in the main and a touch of power, I should be able to handle
anything with the 135% that is likely to come up unexpectedly.

BTW I had a dock neighbor very interested in my fuel system yesterday. He
takes fishing parties out so is one of the few people still using much fuel.
He said that so few people are buying fuel that lots of people are getting
poor fuel because the long hoses are sitting out in the sun for much longer
periods. The fuel polisher in Portland evidently is no longer in business
this year.

--
Roger Long

On 10 Aug 2008 20:18:03 -0500, Dave wrote:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:51:34 -0400, said:

When the wind suddenly pipes up, my 170% genoa can be a bear to wind
up. That's where heavy gloves come in handy.

You carry a 170 furler? And I thought I was maybe overdoing it with a 150.

I would never have gone out and bought one. It came with the boat, and
I don't use it that often. As I pointed out, here in the LIS, the wind
sometimes whispers at 3-5 knots for hours and then suddenly jumps to
15 without much warning. You don't always get an opportunity to "reef
early".

Unless I'm anticipating a long sail in very light conditions, it
usually stays at home, and I don't even keep it onboard. I have a
pretty nice 155%, so it's really not worth the extra weight or storage
space.

On 2008-08-11 09:57:02 -0400, Dave said:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:51:51 -0700 (PDT), RichH said:

A headsail on a 'furler' can only be reduced by 30% SA and still
retain any good shape. Beyond 30% reduction and you wind up with a
'BAG" shape instead of a usable sail shape for any 'upwind' work.
135 X .70 = 95% So, you can reduce a 135 down to a 'working
jib' (100%) size without shape problems. A 150 can usually only be
reduced to a 105, et

That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a
second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in.

On any masthead rig, that's the way to go. The foresail is more
efficient than the main.

Additionally, when properly reefed, the main gets flatter (less heel
and weather helm) and more efficient, with less drag.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

This somewhat depends on halyard geometry. *You see some setups where the
halyard leads at an angle from the foil. *This is good for minimizing
halyard wraps but pulls the end of the foil against the stay. ........
*******Not talking about lead angles of the top swivel to halyard
sheeve.... but the deflection of the torlon bealls under extreme
compressive load from extreme halyard tension; hence, the tendency to
begin to jam or add a lot of friction. My recent Harken starts to jam
when at extreme halyard loads. But then again 'kroozers' have no
idea that it takes halyard strain to 'shape' a sail so its probably a
non-issue for those who simply 'just raise' a sail.

I release the tension on my new sail
********Damn good idea as 'creep' (permanent elastic deformation) is
what eventually 'kills' the shape of a sail.


I had luff foam
put in which I'm told has gone out of style but does seem to do a good job
of increasing the amount that can be rolled up. * I will probably switch to
the working jib if knowingly facing a long beat in 25 knot plus conditions
but I wouldn't make the switch just for traveling. *With the third reef I
had put in the main and a touch of power, I should be able to handle
anything with the 135% that is likely to come up unexpectedly.
******* The newer modern cutting programs (with "S" curve luff hollow
profiles) have mostly obsoleted the need for foam luffs ... although
on a BIG sail you still sometimes need a wee bit of foam luff to
'help' the partly furled shape - still 30% reduction is about as good
as it gets; and, that assumes that one knows how to set the correct
backstay/headstay tension to match the actual 'luff hollow' that is
cut into the headsail when its fully wind-loaded



BTW I had a dock neighbor very interested in my fuel system yesterday. *He
takes fishing parties out so is one of the few people still using much fuel.
He said that so few people are buying fuel that lots of people are getting
poor fuel because the long hoses are sitting out in the sun for much longer
periods. *The fuel polisher in Portland evidently is no longer in business
this year.
Yup, the higher hose temps are good breeding grounds for those fungals
that thrive in #2. Those 'filters' on the delivery hoses do nothing
to stop the 'spores' and 'buds' of the fungals/bacteria. The filters
there are mostly for 'rocks, sticks and feathers'. If possible, I
only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id rather 'jug
it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is
much much less. :-)

On 2008-08-11 06:17:56 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

"RichH" wrote

A furler usually cannot tolerate heavy luff loads, as would be
necessary to change the luff entry shape (the 'forward curve shape' at
the luff) of a jib/genoa; crank on luff tension to a furler with a
halyard and to *Jam*. ..... probably the prime reason that you'll
never ever see a genoa/jib furler on a serious racing boat.

This somewhat depends on halyard geometry. You see some setups where the
halyard leads at an angle from the foil. This is good for minimizing
halyard wraps but pulls the end of the foil against the stay.

Oh, good point! I forgot another reason I love the CDI: The halyard is
internal to the luff, so no possibility of halyard wrap. The luff
tension is controlled at the foot, with about 6:1 leverage from the
multiple loops of light line and gravity helping rather than hurting.
It's real easy to over-tension the luff with a CDI, particularly as the
halyard is wire.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:51:51 -0700 (PDT), RichH said:

A headsail on a 'furler' can only be reduced by 30% SA and still
retain any good shape. Beyond 30% reduction and you wind up with a
'BAG" shape instead of a usable sail shape for any 'upwind' work.
135 X .70 = 95% So, you can reduce a 135 down to a 'working
jib' (100%) size without shape problems. A 150 can usually only be
reduced to a 105, et

That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a
second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in.

Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.