Do downhauls count?

"Ernest Scribbler" wrote in message
. ..
Do downhauls count?



I had one of those on my Cal 20... worked like a charm.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Ernest Scribbler" wrote in message
. ..
Do downhauls count?



I had one of those on my Gay 20... worked like a champ.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.nambla.com




Too Much Information

"mister b" wrote in message
m...
like the header sez...


I have a Schaefer on my Sabre. Had it installed professionally (along with
some other standing rigging) when I got the boat a couple of years ago. It's
been built-proof in the fairly demanding conditions here.. inshore on the SF
bay and offshore about 20 miles. I have a relatively small working jib with
a high foot.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Roger implies the limits of ***function**** of headsail furlers.

A headsail on a 'furler' can only be reduced by 30% SA and still
retain any good shape. Beyond 30% reduction and you wind up with a
'BAG" shape instead of a usable sail shape for any 'upwind' work.
135 X .70 = 95% So, you can reduce a 135 down to a 'working
jib' (100%) size without shape problems. A 150 can usually only be
reduced to a 105, etc.

A furler usually cannot tolerate heavy luff loads, as would be
necessary to change the luff entry shape (the 'forward curve shape' at
the luff) of a jib/genoa; crank on luff tension to a furler with a
halyard and to *Jam*. ..... probably the prime reason that you'll
never ever see a genoa/jib furler on a serious racing boat.

My impression is that most 'kroozers' dont know (or care) how to
'shape' sails ... as one hardly ever sees a 'kroozer' without a
furler.

So Roger, put your working jib back on board when travelling as your
can roll that puppy down to a 70% sail.

Same arguments apply to mainsail furlers - sail shape.

On 2008-08-11 00:51:51 -0400, RichH said:

A furler usually cannot tolerate heavy luff loads

Excuse me?

It's been years since any "modern" furler design failed for merely luff loads.

The strains on a furler decrease dramatically as the sail is furled.

Even the baggiest furled-size 110 won't strain a foil nearly as much as
a real 110.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"RichH" wrote

A furler usually cannot tolerate heavy luff loads, as would be
necessary to change the luff entry shape (the 'forward curve shape' at
the luff) of a jib/genoa; crank on luff tension to a furler with a
halyard and to *Jam*. ..... probably the prime reason that you'll
never ever see a genoa/jib furler on a serious racing boat.

This somewhat depends on halyard geometry. You see some setups where the
halyard leads at an angle from the foil. This is good for minimizing
halyard wraps but pulls the end of the foil against the stay. My halyard is
pretty much in line with the stay but short so no wrap problems or strain.
I get pretty good halyard tension with my rather unusual jib halyard
arrangement. The halyard cleat is on a track with a strong tackle that
hauls it down the mast and the fall led back to the cockpit. I had not
trouble rolling with good tension last year. The sailmaker recommended that
I release the tension on my new sail before stowing to preserve the shape so
this arrangment has proven quite convienient. I occasionally forget to
de-tension the halyard and have not noticed any difference in furling force.
I did work a good gop of Teflon grease down into the end of the foil before
putting the rig up this year and have my foil adjusted so the end runs on
the terminal swage sleeve.

So Roger, put your working jib back on board when travelling as your
can roll that puppy down to a 70% sail.

The shape of my new Genoa is pretty good at about 70% size. I had luff foam
put in which I'm told has gone out of style but does seem to do a good job
of increasing the amount that can be rolled up. I will probably switch to
the working jib if knowingly facing a long beat in 25 knot plus conditions
but I wouldn't make the switch just for traveling. With the third reef I
had put in the main and a touch of power, I should be able to handle
anything with the 135% that is likely to come up unexpectedly.

BTW I had a dock neighbor very interested in my fuel system yesterday. He
takes fishing parties out so is one of the few people still using much fuel.
He said that so few people are buying fuel that lots of people are getting
poor fuel because the long hoses are sitting out in the sun for much longer
periods. The fuel polisher in Portland evidently is no longer in business
this year.

--
Roger Long

This somewhat depends on halyard geometry. *You see some setups where the
halyard leads at an angle from the foil. *This is good for minimizing
halyard wraps but pulls the end of the foil against the stay. ........
*******Not talking about lead angles of the top swivel to halyard
sheeve.... but the deflection of the torlon bealls under extreme
compressive load from extreme halyard tension; hence, the tendency to
begin to jam or add a lot of friction. My recent Harken starts to jam
when at extreme halyard loads. But then again 'kroozers' have no
idea that it takes halyard strain to 'shape' a sail so its probably a
non-issue for those who simply 'just raise' a sail.

I release the tension on my new sail
********Damn good idea as 'creep' (permanent elastic deformation) is
what eventually 'kills' the shape of a sail.


I had luff foam
put in which I'm told has gone out of style but does seem to do a good job
of increasing the amount that can be rolled up. * I will probably switch to
the working jib if knowingly facing a long beat in 25 knot plus conditions
but I wouldn't make the switch just for traveling. *With the third reef I
had put in the main and a touch of power, I should be able to handle
anything with the 135% that is likely to come up unexpectedly.
******* The newer modern cutting programs (with "S" curve luff hollow
profiles) have mostly obsoleted the need for foam luffs ... although
on a BIG sail you still sometimes need a wee bit of foam luff to
'help' the partly furled shape - still 30% reduction is about as good
as it gets; and, that assumes that one knows how to set the correct
backstay/headstay tension to match the actual 'luff hollow' that is
cut into the headsail when its fully wind-loaded



BTW I had a dock neighbor very interested in my fuel system yesterday. *He
takes fishing parties out so is one of the few people still using much fuel.
He said that so few people are buying fuel that lots of people are getting
poor fuel because the long hoses are sitting out in the sun for much longer
periods. *The fuel polisher in Portland evidently is no longer in business
this year.
Yup, the higher hose temps are good breeding grounds for those fungals
that thrive in #2. Those 'filters' on the delivery hoses do nothing
to stop the 'spores' and 'buds' of the fungals/bacteria. The filters
there are mostly for 'rocks, sticks and feathers'. If possible, I
only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id rather 'jug
it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is
much much less. :-)

RichH brought forth on stone tablets:
This somewhat depends on halyard geometry. You see some setups where the
halyard leads at an angle from the foil. This is good for minimizing
halyard wraps but pulls the end of the foil against the stay. ........

*******Not talking about lead angles of the top swivel to halyard
sheeve.... but the deflection of the torlon bealls under extreme
compressive load from extreme halyard tension; hence, the tendency to
begin to jam or add a lot of friction. My recent Harken starts to jam
when at extreme halyard loads. But then again 'kroozers' have no
idea that it takes halyard strain to 'shape' a sail so its probably a
non-issue for those who simply 'just raise' a sail.


I release the tension on my new sail

********Damn good idea as 'creep' (permanent elastic deformation) is
what eventually 'kills' the shape of a sail.


I had luff foam

put in which I'm told has gone out of style but does seem to do a good job
of increasing the amount that can be rolled up. I will probably switch to
the working jib if knowingly facing a long beat in 25 knot plus conditions
but I wouldn't make the switch just for traveling. With the third reef I
had put in the main and a touch of power, I should be able to handle
anything with the 135% that is likely to come up unexpectedly.

******* The newer modern cutting programs (with "S" curve luff hollow
profiles) have mostly obsoleted the need for foam luffs ... although
on a BIG sail you still sometimes need a wee bit of foam luff to
'help' the partly furled shape - still 30% reduction is about as good
as it gets; and, that assumes that one knows how to set the correct
backstay/headstay tension to match the actual 'luff hollow' that is
cut into the headsail when its fully wind-loaded



BTW I had a dock neighbor very interested in my fuel system yesterday. He
takes fishing parties out so is one of the few people still using much fuel.
He said that so few people are buying fuel that lots of people are getting
poor fuel because the long hoses are sitting out in the sun for much longer
periods. The fuel polisher in Portland evidently is no longer in business
this year.

Yup, the higher hose temps are good breeding grounds for those fungals
that thrive in #2. Those 'filters' on the delivery hoses do nothing
to stop the 'spores' and 'buds' of the fungals/bacteria. The filters
there are mostly for 'rocks, sticks and feathers'. If possible, I
only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id rather 'jug
it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is
much much less. :-)


It's also almost universally cheaper. Here in Seattle, I am saving more
than $1/gallon by jugging it.

bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle

"RichH" wrote

If possible, I only buy fuel from a marina as the very last resort; Id
rather 'jug
it' from a truck stop as the chances of fresh uncontaminated fuel is much
much less. :-)

That's what I'm doing. I've got enough on board to motor for 75% of my
planned route so I shouldn't need to re-fuel this cruise.

--
Roger Long