Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years
which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of
proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually
unregistered of course.

I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though
falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle
boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or
at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350
deaths last year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.

Edgar wrote:

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.

It certainly feels like that would be the case, but in fact its not very
common. From a major study:
"The extent to which other vessels contribute to
canoe and kayak fatalities is harder to determine.
In its review of narrative accident data, the ACA
found only a few fatal accidents positively
identified as involving another vessel."
The study goes on to point out that there are a number of fatal capsizes
that are un-witnessed and thus we can't know if another vessel is
involved. We'll certainly never know how many deaths are caused by
wakes from passing boats. But, isn't that simply one of the implied
risks of padding? Certainly, no one should paddle a canoe or kayak
across a busy harbor without wearing a PFD.

The study also points out that the low profile of touring kayaks does
not seem to be a factor in accidents or fatalities. In fact, touring
kayaks were only involved in a small number of fatalities, about one per
year.

http://www.americancanoe.org/atf/cf/...7D/SEI_CJ2.pdf

About 15 years ago, when kayaking took off, there was a belief amongst
paddlers that the rules implied that the "smaller boat always had the
right of way." While there is some truth to that in many state rules
that cover inland lakes (i.e. not covered by the ColRegs or Inland
Rules), that is certainly not the case in most cruising waters.
Fortunately, safety education for paddlers now teaches the real rules
and the prudence of avoiding busy waters.

I would have guessed PWC's often run over canoes, but in fact the
generally run over each other:
"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions
with other PWC."
http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:05:41 -0400, Jeff wrote:

"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions
with other PWC."
http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html

And it's easy to see why when you watch the promotional videos. They
are always shown as toys being ridden in circles, in close proximity
to each other. People buy them thinking that is normal behavior on
the water.

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over
a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a
white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel
area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35
knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going
to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of
the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the
right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a
yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n
around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is
not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at
the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards.
Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had
sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90
degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and
only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I
heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker
entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat
doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next
yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when
paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a
sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed.
I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the
hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the
other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running
turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters
say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor
running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the
right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead,
and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I
agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw
water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.



Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.



Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.

Training schools approved and monitored by USCG.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That
is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention
to lights and dayshapes.

Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is
somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow,
stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so
much.