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#21
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:56:47 -0500, "KLC Lewis" wrote: No problem. I'll just lobby Canada to require everyone to wear a safety harness and helmet in the shower, I thought most accidents occurred in the bedroom ? You've been doing something wrong. ;-) -- KLC Lewis WISCONSIN Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping www.KLCLewisStudios.com |
#22
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:56:47 -0500, "KLC Lewis" wrote: No problem. I'll just lobby Canada to require everyone to wear a safety harness and helmet in the shower, I thought most accidents occurred in the bedroom ? Back seat of the car? |
#23
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down. Now you don't have to say that. This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples of righting procedures for the F-27. The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting. Maybe my favorite boat. Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with positive buoyancy foam. Like the Mac 26M/X is. Don't know if anyone else has pitched in on this. A ballasted keel mono hull sail boat wants to right itself the more it heels due to the ballast and leverage. Monohulls get knocked down at sea and stand back up on thier own, unlike thier multihull counterparts. I guess if a sailor is real lucky and the hull is lying across the wind and you get a good gust it could push the boat upright but if the sails are still set, it might just keep going over and back into the same predicament. The flotation at the masthead is an idea that Hobie came out with way back when, necessary to keep the boat from "turtling" when the mast fills with water. With a Hobie, turtling would be a huge PITA, with a larger multi nothing short of a crane is going to make things right (or upright haha). There's a thing called "righting moment" when talking about mono hulls which is the point the hull has to attain in order for the boat to recover from turtling. On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, meaning if the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to rotate on it's long axis. "Righting moment" is a good button to push when talking to a multi sailor with an attitude. The argument over comfort and speed (multi) vs. crappy weather survivability (mono) is an old one. Thanks for a boat related post Vic! Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those aren't properly engineered and tank-tested. Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones. But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is constructed with positive buoyancy. Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform for survival. The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example. Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried. Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived. So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels.. Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion. Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped. The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished. The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance. What's the problem? A number. 1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost. 2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels. 3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time. Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer. 4. Safety ain't no fun. 5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat manufacturing company. Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod option. Be creative. --Vic |
#24
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote: Since most un-powered boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc. There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually unregistered of course. I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. |
#25
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:05:02 -0400, "mmc" wrote:
On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, meaning if the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to rotate on it's long axis. Once the mast of a monohull gets rotated past horizontal, i.e. well into the water, it usually breaks. |
#26
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
"Jeff" wrote in message ... I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over 10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last year. So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are at risk. Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting fla****er, often only a few feet deep. I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. |
#27
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
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#29
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
Edgar wrote:
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots. It certainly feels like that would be the case, but in fact its not very common. From a major study: "The extent to which other vessels contribute to canoe and kayak fatalities is harder to determine. In its review of narrative accident data, the ACA found only a few fatal accidents positively identified as involving another vessel." The study goes on to point out that there are a number of fatal capsizes that are un-witnessed and thus we can't know if another vessel is involved. We'll certainly never know how many deaths are caused by wakes from passing boats. But, isn't that simply one of the implied risks of padding? Certainly, no one should paddle a canoe or kayak across a busy harbor without wearing a PFD. The study also points out that the low profile of touring kayaks does not seem to be a factor in accidents or fatalities. In fact, touring kayaks were only involved in a small number of fatalities, about one per year. http://www.americancanoe.org/atf/cf/...7D/SEI_CJ2.pdf About 15 years ago, when kayaking took off, there was a belief amongst paddlers that the rules implied that the "smaller boat always had the right of way." While there is some truth to that in many state rules that cover inland lakes (i.e. not covered by the ColRegs or Inland Rules), that is certainly not the case in most cruising waters. Fortunately, safety education for paddlers now teaches the real rules and the prudence of avoiding busy waters. I would have guessed PWC's often run over canoes, but in fact the generally run over each other: "70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions with other PWC." http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html |
#30
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Capsize Prevention
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:05:41 -0400, Jeff wrote:
"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions with other PWC." http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html And it's easy to see why when you watch the promotional videos. They are always shown as toys being ridden in circles, in close proximity to each other. People buy them thinking that is normal behavior on the water. |
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