Wayne B wrote, in another thread:

On 1 Apr 2007 06:24:13 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

As to never accidentally touching ground again, if you define ground
as stuff which isn't usually wet, I think you're right about that.
However, I fully expect we'll not only touch bottom again, there may
even be times we'll have to get pulled off, or wait a long time to
float off. Any sailor who sez they've never been aground hasn't left
the dock, or started yesterday :{))

That's all true but avoidance is still the best line of defense.

Speaking to that issue, I'm wondering if you've had a chance to fully
come to grips with the circumstances of your recent mishap, and put
together a plan of action for future prevention. I've studiously
avoided any public comment on what should or should not have been
done, but certainly have a few opinions based on my own experience if
you're interested. More important however are your thoughts.


Hi, Wayne, and group,

Well, that's an entirely legitimate question, and one which we've
pondered ourselves for most of the time since it happened.

I'm going to make excuses first :{))

I'm currently enjoying reading lots of Steve and Linda Dashew's
postings on SetSail.com. Those who don't know them can find them at
www.setsail.com. I hold them to be pretty well experienced. They,
too, go aground - with some regularity, though not necessarily as
heavily as we did - despite all sorts of heavy duty electronic gear
and lots of vigilance.

In the Island Packet sailnet list in which I participate, there is
currently a discussion about the QEII captain (reasonably assumed to
be pretty well qualified and vigilant) who ran her up, at full speed,
on a rock now known as Queen's Bottom near Boston, causing, though not
catastrophic, millions of dollars of damage.

I've had the distinct pleasure to hear Nigel Calder speak at a few
Seven Seas Cruising Association meetings. Pertinent to the subject,
in one of his seminars he discusses how often, and how hard,
sometimes, he's gone aground. Like the above, I consider him
adequately experienced and cautious to not do that.

Finally, we have been amazed at how many we found, beginning when we
were still in the Keys Boat Works who, when told of our adventure (for
that's what it was, even if it had turned out worse), describe their
personal experiences of the sickening sounds of fiberglass crunching
as their boats were crashed on rocks. Most of them also described how
long they were there, and the efforts needed to extract them.
Fortunately for all of those particular stories, they didn't have to
get a small navy involved and pay a salvor. Lately, we've even had N
(something greater than 5 but I don't remember exactly) folks who have
told us about *losing* their boats, with two of them having lost *2* -
and each of them, as well, were extremely well qualified, including
one who's an "any ocean, any vessel, all endorsements" captain.

So, we'll not have any remorse over the mortification we experienced :
{))

That out of the way, the grounding was merely the symptom of the
disease.

The disease was inadequate (insert many -ing/-ion items). And, as
discussed in the "I learned..." post, all of them could have worked
out all right, so, as others have said in different forums/lists/
groups where this has been discussed, but for a couple of degrees, it
might well have never happened, and the disease might have gone
unnoticed, as those many have been in similar circumstances before,
and gotten away with it.

So...

First order of business is to become more familiar with the boat and
its gear. I'd wanted, from the start, to take an extended US coastal
trip as a shakedown. Sometimes you have to be hit upside the head
with a 2x4 to get your attention; that's now happened with Lydia,
who's (now )enthusiastically looking forward to all that the East
Coast has to offer. And, as life is what happens as you're making
other plans, who knows? We may find such pleasures addictive and do
that plus the Bahamas for many years. However, we expect to head out
again in November or thereabouts, beginning our Caribbean
adventure(s).

That first order of business will prevent many of the problem elements
of our first rudely interrupted cruise. Had she fully understood how
the chartplotter worked, and manipulated it to look forward and back
and around in varying scales, even in her impaired condition, our
grounding could have been avoided as, while it didn't offer great
detail, it *did* show the reefs, and we, or even just she, could have
done something about it before it happened. I made it a point not to
cast recriminations, but she's now come to (also without dwelling on
it) accept responsibility for the end result; she tells folks, now,
that she wasn't in condition to stand watch, but didn't fetch me to
either take over or assist. We'll not make that mistake again.

The second will be better education and general skills. We're taking
the Captain's classes beginning in a couple of weeks. That won't make
us better sailors, necessarily, but it will add to our skillsets.

The third will be better voyage preparation. I tend to "go on" so I'm
concerned that I'll/I am blather/ing, but VanZandt, in his Gentleman's
Guide, speaks to a 4-hour-per-day weather prep. We didn't do that -
but we very well did the tracking. It didn't help, as the weather
system wasn't mentioned in any of the print, internet, or VHF stuff we
either heard or saw, either before or after. However, our actual
plotting and paper/electronic prep was inadequate. We'll spend more
time on that, and also more time underway in review of our position,
movement and changes of condition.

4th, and covered, really, in the first, will be more heavy weather
practice. We attempted to heave to, unsuccessfully. Had we
succeeded, we would not have been where we ended up; instead, we
continued, as the result with heaving to wasn't an improvement in
stability or comfort, and continuation improved both. I don't know
why we were unable - but our practicing should reveal the solution.

The question was raised, along the way, why we didn't just anchor. We
did consider that, but rejected it for a couple of reasons. The first
was the sea state's contribution to safety on deck. Our anchors (to
prevent a loss by self-launching) are shackled. Even though we have
cockpit controls for the windlass, one of us would have to go forward
to relieve - in the dark, with a wildly pitching deck and green water
attacks - the pressure on the chain to allow unshackling. The second
was that without a huge snubber (something which could be done for
hurricane prep, but wasn't a viable solution in the current
conditions), even though I would have been willing to go forward to
make it happen, I knew that we'd have ripped the roller system - which
included the forestay chain plate - off in the heaving, even with a
4-5/1 (with the depth at the time, it's all I could get with my 300
feet of chain) scope. So, I rejected that solution. Perhaps a
destruction of the roller system and a likely dismasting to follow,
given that we had to pay a salvor, in the end, would have been a
better outcome - but we weren't adequately prescient to see the
eventual end of the story :{))

In the end, to the specific question, which really is just about a
specific incident, the remaining solution will be to avoid or cure
excessive fatigue. Much has been written about fatigue management in
various realms so I'll not try to duplicate them here. Our lives in
general should not have to deal with excessive fatigue, but if we find
ourselves in that condition, we'll place the vessel in such a position
as to allow us some relief, or, simply, not depart before adequate
rest.

So, a rested crew, with an intimately familiar set of instrumentation
(and their manual backups) and gear, combined with a higher level of
experience (and therefore muscle memory, rather than figuratively
scratching our heads, being the response to a set of circumstances),
is our solution. Ironically, we have a sea anchor. It's buried to
where it's inconvenient to get to it. Likely we'll have it more
accessible when we next set out, as it could well have done the job
instead of a bottom anchor. I was tired enough that it didn't even
enter my mind at the time...

Let the potshots begin :{)) I look forward to constructive
suggestions on additional measures which we might take (not, "sell the
boat, you're a danger to yourselves and all the rest of us out there!"
as has been seen in some of the venues where our escapades have been
exposed) to make us better denizens of the coastal and high seas...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands.

You seek problems because you need their gifts.

Skip, you and Lydia have worked long and hard getting the boat ready but
tiller time was lacking because of that. Only thing to do is get back on
the horse after she's fixed and spend some time learning the boat. Maybe
you want to be based out of one location and sail often in varied conditions
to learn the boat. You're going have to learn the sail combination for
heaving too. Lydia is going have to learn piloting.

I'm like you, I tend to work on the boat too much. My wife demands we go
sailing as much as possible when the season starts. She's right.

Good luck.

Bryan


"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wayne B wrote, in another thread:

On 1 Apr 2007 06:24:13 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

As to never accidentally touching ground again, if you define ground
as stuff which isn't usually wet, I think you're right about that.
However, I fully expect we'll not only touch bottom again, there may
even be times we'll have to get pulled off, or wait a long time to
float off. Any sailor who sez they've never been aground hasn't left
the dock, or started yesterday :{))

That's all true but avoidance is still the best line of defense.

Speaking to that issue, I'm wondering if you've had a chance to fully
come to grips with the circumstances of your recent mishap, and put
together a plan of action for future prevention. I've studiously
avoided any public comment on what should or should not have been
done, but certainly have a few opinions based on my own experience if
you're interested. More important however are your thoughts.


Hi, Wayne, and group,

Well, that's an entirely legitimate question, and one which we've
pondered ourselves for most of the time since it happened.

I'm going to make excuses first :{))

I'm currently enjoying reading lots of Steve and Linda Dashew's
postings on SetSail.com. Those who don't know them can find them at
www.setsail.com. I hold them to be pretty well experienced. They,
too, go aground - with some regularity, though not necessarily as
heavily as we did - despite all sorts of heavy duty electronic gear
and lots of vigilance.

In the Island Packet sailnet list in which I participate, there is
currently a discussion about the QEII captain (reasonably assumed to
be pretty well qualified and vigilant) who ran her up, at full speed,
on a rock now known as Queen's Bottom near Boston, causing, though not
catastrophic, millions of dollars of damage.

I've had the distinct pleasure to hear Nigel Calder speak at a few
Seven Seas Cruising Association meetings. Pertinent to the subject,
in one of his seminars he discusses how often, and how hard,
sometimes, he's gone aground. Like the above, I consider him
adequately experienced and cautious to not do that.

Finally, we have been amazed at how many we found, beginning when we
were still in the Keys Boat Works who, when told of our adventure (for
that's what it was, even if it had turned out worse), describe their
personal experiences of the sickening sounds of fiberglass crunching
as their boats were crashed on rocks. Most of them also described how
long they were there, and the efforts needed to extract them.
Fortunately for all of those particular stories, they didn't have to
get a small navy involved and pay a salvor. Lately, we've even had N
(something greater than 5 but I don't remember exactly) folks who have
told us about *losing* their boats, with two of them having lost *2* -
and each of them, as well, were extremely well qualified, including
one who's an "any ocean, any vessel, all endorsements" captain.

So, we'll not have any remorse over the mortification we experienced :
{))

That out of the way, the grounding was merely the symptom of the
disease.

The disease was inadequate (insert many -ing/-ion items). And, as
discussed in the "I learned..." post, all of them could have worked
out all right, so, as others have said in different forums/lists/
groups where this has been discussed, but for a couple of degrees, it
might well have never happened, and the disease might have gone
unnoticed, as those many have been in similar circumstances before,
and gotten away with it.

So...

First order of business is to become more familiar with the boat and
its gear. I'd wanted, from the start, to take an extended US coastal
trip as a shakedown. Sometimes you have to be hit upside the head
with a 2x4 to get your attention; that's now happened with Lydia,
who's (now )enthusiastically looking forward to all that the East
Coast has to offer. And, as life is what happens as you're making
other plans, who knows? We may find such pleasures addictive and do
that plus the Bahamas for many years. However, we expect to head out
again in November or thereabouts, beginning our Caribbean
adventure(s).

That first order of business will prevent many of the problem elements
of our first rudely interrupted cruise. Had she fully understood how
the chartplotter worked, and manipulated it to look forward and back
and around in varying scales, even in her impaired condition, our
grounding could have been avoided as, while it didn't offer great
detail, it *did* show the reefs, and we, or even just she, could have
done something about it before it happened. I made it a point not to
cast recriminations, but she's now come to (also without dwelling on
it) accept responsibility for the end result; she tells folks, now,
that she wasn't in condition to stand watch, but didn't fetch me to
either take over or assist. We'll not make that mistake again.

The second will be better education and general skills. We're taking
the Captain's classes beginning in a couple of weeks. That won't make
us better sailors, necessarily, but it will add to our skillsets.

The third will be better voyage preparation. I tend to "go on" so I'm
concerned that I'll/I am blather/ing, but VanZandt, in his Gentleman's
Guide, speaks to a 4-hour-per-day weather prep. We didn't do that -
but we very well did the tracking. It didn't help, as the weather
system wasn't mentioned in any of the print, internet, or VHF stuff we
either heard or saw, either before or after. However, our actual
plotting and paper/electronic prep was inadequate. We'll spend more
time on that, and also more time underway in review of our position,
movement and changes of condition.

4th, and covered, really, in the first, will be more heavy weather
practice. We attempted to heave to, unsuccessfully. Had we
succeeded, we would not have been where we ended up; instead, we
continued, as the result with heaving to wasn't an improvement in
stability or comfort, and continuation improved both. I don't know
why we were unable - but our practicing should reveal the solution.

The question was raised, along the way, why we didn't just anchor. We
did consider that, but rejected it for a couple of reasons. The first
was the sea state's contribution to safety on deck. Our anchors (to
prevent a loss by self-launching) are shackled. Even though we have
cockpit controls for the windlass, one of us would have to go forward
to relieve - in the dark, with a wildly pitching deck and green water
attacks - the pressure on the chain to allow unshackling. The second
was that without a huge snubber (something which could be done for
hurricane prep, but wasn't a viable solution in the current
conditions), even though I would have been willing to go forward to
make it happen, I knew that we'd have ripped the roller system - which
included the forestay chain plate - off in the heaving, even with a
4-5/1 (with the depth at the time, it's all I could get with my 300
feet of chain) scope. So, I rejected that solution. Perhaps a
destruction of the roller system and a likely dismasting to follow,
given that we had to pay a salvor, in the end, would have been a
better outcome - but we weren't adequately prescient to see the
eventual end of the story :{))

In the end, to the specific question, which really is just about a
specific incident, the remaining solution will be to avoid or cure
excessive fatigue. Much has been written about fatigue management in
various realms so I'll not try to duplicate them here. Our lives in
general should not have to deal with excessive fatigue, but if we find
ourselves in that condition, we'll place the vessel in such a position
as to allow us some relief, or, simply, not depart before adequate
rest.

So, a rested crew, with an intimately familiar set of instrumentation
(and their manual backups) and gear, combined with a higher level of
experience (and therefore muscle memory, rather than figuratively
scratching our heads, being the response to a set of circumstances),
is our solution. Ironically, we have a sea anchor. It's buried to
where it's inconvenient to get to it. Likely we'll have it more
accessible when we next set out, as it could well have done the job
instead of a bottom anchor. I was tired enough that it didn't even
enter my mind at the time...

Let the potshots begin :{)) I look forward to constructive
suggestions on additional measures which we might take (not, "sell the
boat, you're a danger to yourselves and all the rest of us out there!"
as has been seen in some of the venues where our escapades have been
exposed) to make us better denizens of the coastal and high seas...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands.

You seek problems because you need their gifts.

On 2 Apr 2007 08:22:59 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Let the potshots begin :{)) I look forward to constructive
suggestions on additional measures which we might take

No potshots from me, not intentionally anyway.

I think you've touched on some important points, and I'll add a few
comments of my own.

My wife and I have done quite a few 24 to 72 hour passages, and being
well familiar with the risks, including fatigue, we take certain
precautions.

Rule 1 - My wife is never alone at the helm during, or prior to, a
landfall/harbor entrance. Her skills are just not good enough and
probably never will be. We both accept that. I plan to be on deck at
least an hour before any approach to obstructions or shallow water.

Rule 2 - We pace ourselves and time our rest periods so that violating
rule 1 is never an issue.

Rule 3 - Never enter into obstructed waters or a landfall situation
during the hours of darkness if it can possibly be avoided. We have
frequently slowed down and waited for day light before entering
unfamilar harbors.

Rule 4 - If weather deteriorates, always have a plan B and execute it
sooner rather than later.

Cockpit instrumentation, etc.:

One of our most important navigation devices is the autopilot. It
steers straight courses, is easily tweaked to minor course
corrections, and most importantly it gives you time and energy to pay
attention to everything else. If the autopilot were to fail we would
immediately head to the nearest port and get it fixed.

You need a good couse plotter and radar at or near the helm. This is
easy on our trawler but also doable on a sailboat with todays
waterproof pods from Furuno and others. When my wife is on watch the
course plotter always has a couse line on it that I have preset and
validated. In addition, an XTE display (Cross track error) and depth
is always on the plotter screen. My wife knows how to interpret the
displays and tweak the auto pilot course as necessary. She can also
toggle back and forth to the radar display, change the radar range,
track targets, determine their course and CPA (Closest Point of
Approach). She has standing instructions to alert me to any CPA less
than a mile, any visible lights that she does not understand, or any
deviation from the planned course.

Anchoring:

We secure our anchor with a mechanical chain stopper and also with a
chain hook/snubber line to a cleat. They can both be freed up within
seconds with no tools. My wife is well trained on how to do it
herself if needed. We carry two heavy nylon snubber lines with chain
hooks/shackles/thimbles spliced into one end. The breaking strength
of your heaviest snubbing line should be about the same as your chain.
Use two snubbing lines in rough conditions. There is a risk of
breaking the chain or deck hardware if your snubber fails and you
fetch up hard on a taut chain. Anchoring the boat, even in miserable
conditions, is always preferable to getting into a dangerous
situation. Practice makes perfect.

Experience:

Learn to walk before you run. Get lots of experience (many months)
with the boat and all of its systems before attempting long passages,
especially those that require watch standing and overnight runs.
There is a degree of risk associated with running at night even for
the best equipped boats and most experienced crews. We try to avoid
it unless the benefits in time and distance clearly outweigh the
risks.

On 2 Apr 2007 08:22:59 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

Let the potshots begin :{)) I look forward to constructive
suggestions on additional measures which we might take (not, "sell the
boat, you're a danger to yourselves and all the rest of us out there!"
as has been seen in some of the venues where our escapades have been
exposed) to make us better denizens of the coastal and high seas...

You seem to have all issues under control. Having read of your mishap
and what led to it, it is easy to see how simple misfortune played a
major role in the piling on of events.
Gaining experience might be the most critical need, and you certainly
have gained some of the most important type!
I'm sure that many sailors harbor that "can't happen to me" disease.
You have been inoculated.

Good luck!

--Vic

Potshot ... Potshot ....

Naw........


It is easy to criticize, hard to put one's self on the boat.

I have enjoyed your postings. Not your situation but the knowledge gained
for me.

Up here in New England, at least where I am, the water is deep. When you
hit, you sink. Makes the salvage easy. Boat is 400 feet down, oh well.

I did happen to watch a video this past winter of Don Street's Iolair
sailing from Europe to the Caribbean.

One thing he said as the boat approached the coast was to never attempt a
landing in the dark. Now, I know why.

=======
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wayne B wrote, in another thread:

On 1 Apr 2007 06:24:13 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

As to never accidentally touching ground again, if you define ground
as stuff which isn't usually wet, I think you're right about that.
However, I fully expect we'll not only touch bottom again, there may
even be times we'll have to get pulled off, or wait a long time to
float off. Any sailor who sez they've never been aground hasn't left
the dock, or started yesterday :{))

That's all true but avoidance is still the best line of defense.

Speaking to that issue, I'm wondering if you've had a chance to fully
come to grips with the circumstances of your recent mishap, and put
together a plan of action for future prevention. I've studiously
avoided any public comment on what should or should not have been
done, but certainly have a few opinions based on my own experience if
you're interested. More important however are your thoughts.


Hi, Wayne, and group,

Well, that's an entirely legitimate question, and one which we've
pondered ourselves for most of the time since it happened.

I'm going to make excuses first :{))

I'm currently enjoying reading lots of Steve and Linda Dashew's
postings on SetSail.com. Those who don't know them can find them at
www.setsail.com. I hold them to be pretty well experienced. They,
too, go aground - with some regularity, though not necessarily as
heavily as we did - despite all sorts of heavy duty electronic gear
and lots of vigilance.

In the Island Packet sailnet list in which I participate, there is
currently a discussion about the QEII captain (reasonably assumed to
be pretty well qualified and vigilant) who ran her up, at full speed,
on a rock now known as Queen's Bottom near Boston, causing, though not
catastrophic, millions of dollars of damage.

I've had the distinct pleasure to hear Nigel Calder speak at a few
Seven Seas Cruising Association meetings. Pertinent to the subject,
in one of his seminars he discusses how often, and how hard,
sometimes, he's gone aground. Like the above, I consider him
adequately experienced and cautious to not do that.

Finally, we have been amazed at how many we found, beginning when we
were still in the Keys Boat Works who, when told of our adventure (for
that's what it was, even if it had turned out worse), describe their
personal experiences of the sickening sounds of fiberglass crunching
as their boats were crashed on rocks. Most of them also described how
long they were there, and the efforts needed to extract them.
Fortunately for all of those particular stories, they didn't have to
get a small navy involved and pay a salvor. Lately, we've even had N
(something greater than 5 but I don't remember exactly) folks who have
told us about *losing* their boats, with two of them having lost *2* -
and each of them, as well, were extremely well qualified, including
one who's an "any ocean, any vessel, all endorsements" captain.

So, we'll not have any remorse over the mortification we experienced :
{))

That out of the way, the grounding was merely the symptom of the
disease.

The disease was inadequate (insert many -ing/-ion items). And, as
discussed in the "I learned..." post, all of them could have worked
out all right, so, as others have said in different forums/lists/
groups where this has been discussed, but for a couple of degrees, it
might well have never happened, and the disease might have gone
unnoticed, as those many have been in similar circumstances before,
and gotten away with it.

So...

First order of business is to become more familiar with the boat and
its gear. I'd wanted, from the start, to take an extended US coastal
trip as a shakedown. Sometimes you have to be hit upside the head
with a 2x4 to get your attention; that's now happened with Lydia,
who's (now )enthusiastically looking forward to all that the East
Coast has to offer. And, as life is what happens as you're making
other plans, who knows? We may find such pleasures addictive and do
that plus the Bahamas for many years. However, we expect to head out
again in November or thereabouts, beginning our Caribbean
adventure(s).

That first order of business will prevent many of the problem elements
of our first rudely interrupted cruise. Had she fully understood how
the chartplotter worked, and manipulated it to look forward and back
and around in varying scales, even in her impaired condition, our
grounding could have been avoided as, while it didn't offer great
detail, it *did* show the reefs, and we, or even just she, could have
done something about it before it happened. I made it a point not to
cast recriminations, but she's now come to (also without dwelling on
it) accept responsibility for the end result; she tells folks, now,
that she wasn't in condition to stand watch, but didn't fetch me to
either take over or assist. We'll not make that mistake again.

The second will be better education and general skills. We're taking
the Captain's classes beginning in a couple of weeks. That won't make
us better sailors, necessarily, but it will add to our skillsets.

The third will be better voyage preparation. I tend to "go on" so I'm
concerned that I'll/I am blather/ing, but VanZandt, in his Gentleman's
Guide, speaks to a 4-hour-per-day weather prep. We didn't do that -
but we very well did the tracking. It didn't help, as the weather
system wasn't mentioned in any of the print, internet, or VHF stuff we
either heard or saw, either before or after. However, our actual
plotting and paper/electronic prep was inadequate. We'll spend more
time on that, and also more time underway in review of our position,
movement and changes of condition.

4th, and covered, really, in the first, will be more heavy weather
practice. We attempted to heave to, unsuccessfully. Had we
succeeded, we would not have been where we ended up; instead, we
continued, as the result with heaving to wasn't an improvement in
stability or comfort, and continuation improved both. I don't know
why we were unable - but our practicing should reveal the solution.

The question was raised, along the way, why we didn't just anchor. We
did consider that, but rejected it for a couple of reasons. The first
was the sea state's contribution to safety on deck. Our anchors (to
prevent a loss by self-launching) are shackled. Even though we have
cockpit controls for the windlass, one of us would have to go forward
to relieve - in the dark, with a wildly pitching deck and green water
attacks - the pressure on the chain to allow unshackling. The second
was that without a huge snubber (something which could be done for
hurricane prep, but wasn't a viable solution in the current
conditions), even though I would have been willing to go forward to
make it happen, I knew that we'd have ripped the roller system - which
included the forestay chain plate - off in the heaving, even with a
4-5/1 (with the depth at the time, it's all I could get with my 300
feet of chain) scope. So, I rejected that solution. Perhaps a
destruction of the roller system and a likely dismasting to follow,
given that we had to pay a salvor, in the end, would have been a
better outcome - but we weren't adequately prescient to see the
eventual end of the story :{))

In the end, to the specific question, which really is just about a
specific incident, the remaining solution will be to avoid or cure
excessive fatigue. Much has been written about fatigue management in
various realms so I'll not try to duplicate them here. Our lives in
general should not have to deal with excessive fatigue, but if we find
ourselves in that condition, we'll place the vessel in such a position
as to allow us some relief, or, simply, not depart before adequate
rest.

So, a rested crew, with an intimately familiar set of instrumentation
(and their manual backups) and gear, combined with a higher level of
experience (and therefore muscle memory, rather than figuratively
scratching our heads, being the response to a set of circumstances),
is our solution. Ironically, we have a sea anchor. It's buried to
where it's inconvenient to get to it. Likely we'll have it more
accessible when we next set out, as it could well have done the job
instead of a bottom anchor. I was tired enough that it didn't even
enter my mind at the time...

Let the potshots begin :{)) I look forward to constructive
suggestions on additional measures which we might take (not, "sell the
boat, you're a danger to yourselves and all the rest of us out there!"
as has been seen in some of the venues where our escapades have been
exposed) to make us better denizens of the coastal and high seas...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
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There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its
hands.

You seek problems because you need their gifts.

On 2 Apr 2007 08:22:59 -0700, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

I'm going to make excuses first :{))

I'm currently enjoying reading lots of Steve and Linda Dashew's
postings on SetSail.com. Those who don't know them can find them at
www.setsail.com. I hold them to be pretty well experienced. They,
too, go aground - with some regularity, though not necessarily as
heavily as we did - despite all sorts of heavy duty electronic gear
and lots of vigilance.

Almost all of us have been aground at one time or another. We've
certainly done our share although never with serious damage other than
to the ego. It's an almost inevitable consequence of seeking out
interesting places and protected coves in waters that are none too
well charted.

I think the subject deserves more comment however.

Think about aviation for a minute. If accidental groundings were as
common in aviation as they are in pleasure boating, there would be a
lot fewer pilots and planes around, and almost no one would risk
setting foot in an airplane.

I mention this partly because many of the most successful long
range/long time cruisers that I've met have been retired commercial
pilots, usually with military aviation experience before that. These
guys are used to training and operating with an absolutely zero
defects state of mind, no excuses permitted. We should all try to
learn something from that because you can not cruise for very long if
you incur serious damage with any degree of frequency, just as a pilot
can not expect to fly with anything less than a nearly perfect record.

It's been my experience that if you lower your sights to accept
anything less than perfection, that something less will almost
inevitably result. It happens often enough even with all the best
intentions. Zero defects should be the goal, and anything less should
be closely scrutinized every time it happens. One of my personal
goals is to always operate the boat with just as much prudence and
skill as a trained professional. I don't always achieve it of course,
but I never accept it as inevitable. Professional captains and pilots
who make serious mistakes lose their jobs and rarely get a second
chance.

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

put
together a plan of action for future prevention

Mistake number one - Florida.

Way too many NICE places to sail, in DEEP WATER, rather than be stuck in
sandbar, reef and manatee country staring hard at the depth sounder,
praying for DEPTH...(c;

Y'all come up ta Charleston. Hell, there's more depth at the marina than
in FLORIDA!...(c;


Larry
--

Larry .. someone I know visited Charleston recently. Loved the place.

I got to thinking after I read the Skip posting.

Isnt' there an old sailor saying "when in doubt, stay out"

Then there is the old dating bar saying .. "when in doubt pull out".

Can never remember which is for boating.. probably both.

---
"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

put
together a plan of action for future prevention

Mistake number one - Florida.

Way too many NICE places to sail, in DEEP WATER, rather than be stuck in
sandbar, reef and manatee country staring hard at the depth sounder,
praying for DEPTH...(c;

Y'all come up ta Charleston. Hell, there's more depth at the marina than
in FLORIDA!...(c;


Larry
--

You beat me to it on the aviation analogy. There's a saying that all
aircraft accidents are pilot error because the pilot has the option of not
taking off. Running aground is a bad thing. There is no excuse for doing it,
ever. Just because a lot of other people do it doesn't make it less bad.
There is enough deep, well marked, water to get from just about anywhere to
just about anywhere else. If there isn't enough water, don't go there.

However, positively, absolutely, guaranteeing that you never go aground will
deprive you of seeing a lot of interesting places and seeing them close
enough to appreciate the shore, scenery, and wildlife. Like cruising,
aviation's biggest hazard is the weather. It's possible to fly with next to
know danger of an accident where weather is a factor but only flying on
perfectly clear, calm, days is pretty limiting.

The most critical safety issue in aviation is the pilot's understanding of
his or her level of ability and balancing that against the challenges of the
proposed flight. Understanding that this is a dynamic process is vital. A
flight that might be acceptable on Monday might not be on Friday at the end
of a long, tiring, and stressful work week. Skill and ability improve and
constantly stretching your limits so you will be ready for the unexpected
without over reaching and getting into trouble is a constant balancing act
for the pilot.

The sea is a bit more forgiving but the same principles apply. Skip and
Lydia's adventure reminded me a lot of the occasional pilot who passes his
instrument checkride and then heads right off into hard IFR on a long trip
to unfamiliar airspace. People do it and die at an impressively high rate
when they do.

One of my favorite aviation quotes (repeated from a recent post but it bears
repeating) is the flight examiner handing a new pilot his certificate after
the check ride and saying, "Here's the piece of paper that says you are a
pilot, don't go out and kill yourself now thinking you are an aviator. That
comes later."

It's called judgement and it was constantly repeated to me during my flight
training that it was the one thing that could not be taught. I would have to
learn it for myself. S&L are on the right track now with their east coast
cruise but I think they've probably already learned the important lesson.

Good judgement will make up for a deficit in skill better than skill will
make up for lack of judgement.

--
Roger Long

No potshots from me, but a couple of comments that I hope are
constructive.

We're taking
the Captain's classes beginning in a couple of weeks. That won't make
us better sailors, necessarily, but it will add to our skillsets.

The USCG tests for licenses assume that you have proven to be
experienced and competent in the service that you are testing for and
to a large extent just attempt to make sure there are no gaping holes
in your knowledge. Courses for the licenses tend to assume much the
same and cover a lot of ground very quickly. I wonder if it might not
be more appropriate to look at classes intended for novices rather
than professionals.

she tells folks, now,
that she wasn't in condition to stand watch, but didn't fetch me to
either take over or assist. We'll not make that mistake again.

This is critical. I've had two acquaintances die because their less
competent partners failed to wake them in difficult conditions. In
one case the boat was run down by a tow and in the other dragged onto
a lee shore. The husbands and their boats were lost in a large part
because their wives wanted to let them rest. I continually remind my
crew that she must wake me whenever she has any questions or doubts
and I try very hard to praise her each time she calls me even though
most calls are false alarms. Sleep management and watch
responsibility may be the hardest part of sailing short handed.

-- Tom.