Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down.
Now you don't have to say that.
This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples
of righting procedures for the F-27.
The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting.
Maybe my favorite boat.
Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons.
http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html

Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most
will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with
positive buoyancy foam.
Like the Mac 26M/X is.
Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those
aren't properly engineered and tank-tested.
Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones.
But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats
are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over
Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is
constructed with positive buoyancy.
Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform
for survival.
The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example.
Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well
designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried.
Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived.
So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and
capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels..
Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion.
Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped.
The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished.
The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance.
What's the problem? A number.
1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost.
2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels.
3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time.
Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer.
4. Safety ain't no fun.
5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat
manufacturing company.
Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels
of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod
option. Be creative.

--Vic

On 10/17/09 6:27 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down.
Now you don't have to say that.
This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples
of righting procedures for the F-27.
The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting.
Maybe my favorite boat.
Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons.
http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html

Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most
will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with
positive buoyancy foam.
Like the Mac 26M/X is.
Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those
aren't properly engineered and tank-tested.
Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones.
But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats
are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over
Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is
constructed with positive buoyancy.
Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform
for survival.
The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example.
Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well
designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried.
Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived.
So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and
capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels..
Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion.
Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped.
The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished.
The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance.
What's the problem? A number.
1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost.
2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels.
3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time.
Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer.
4. Safety ain't no fun.
5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat
manufacturing company.
Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels
of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod
option. Be creative.

--Vic

How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped?

In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have.


--
http://tinyurl.com/ykaa4k7

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K
wrote:



How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped?

In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have.

Once, but I've done very little boating.
Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad.
Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full
of water.
It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened.
But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality
mishaps. Pretty sure anyway.

--Vic

On 10/17/09 6:52 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K
wrote:



How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped?

In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have.

Once, but I've done very little boating.
Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad.
Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full
of water.
It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened.
But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality
mishaps. Pretty sure anyway.

--Vic



Well, on smaller round bottom boats, it's not that hard to be capsized.
It's harder on 18' and larger wide flat-bottomed or vee or semi vee
hulls, but, of course, it's not impossible. Plenty of guys go way out in
the ocean with small boats, and have for centuries. I've done it on good
days with weather reports and a constant eye on the horizon.

On the Bay, which usually only has a constant chop or two-footers, the
biggest problem seems to being run down by old farts in monster power
cruisers, or hit by sailboaters during the high heat when their captains
are semi-comatose. But that's mostly outside of Annapolis harbor.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:27:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down.
Now you don't have to say that.
This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples
of righting procedures for the F-27.
The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting.
Maybe my favorite boat.
Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons.
http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html

Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most
will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with
positive buoyancy foam.
Like the Mac 26M/X is.
Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those
aren't properly engineered and tank-tested.
Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones.
But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats
are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over
Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is
constructed with positive buoyancy.
Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform
for survival.
The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example.
Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well
designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried.
Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived.
So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and
capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels..
Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion.
Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped.
The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished.
The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance.
What's the problem? A number.
1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost.
2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels.
3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time.
Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer.
4. Safety ain't no fun.
5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat
manufacturing company.
Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels
of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod
option. Be creative.

--Vic

A "knock down" is not necessarily a "capsize". In fact it seldom is
and most sail boats will recover from a "knock down" with no action
from the helmsman as at high angles of heel the rudder loses effect
and normal sail action tends to turn the boat nose into the wind (on a
properly rigged boat, that is :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:27:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down.
Now you don't have to say that.
This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples
of righting procedures for the F-27.
The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting.
Maybe my favorite boat.
Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons.
http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html

Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most
will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with
positive buoyancy foam.
Like the Mac 26M/X is.
Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those
aren't properly engineered and tank-tested.
Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones.
But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats
are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over
Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is
constructed with positive buoyancy.
Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform
for survival.
The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example.
Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well
designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried.
Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived.
So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and
capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels..
Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion.
Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped.
The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished.
The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance.
What's the problem? A number.
1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost.
2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels.
3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time.
Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer.
4. Safety ain't no fun.
5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat
manufacturing company.
Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels
of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod
option. Be creative.

--Vic

A "knock down" is not necessarily a "capsize". In fact it seldom is
and most sail boats will recover from a "knock down" with no action
from the helmsman as at high angles of heel the rudder loses effect
and normal sail action tends to turn the boat nose into the wind (on a
properly rigged boat, that is :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


Sure thing... I've touched the main on the water many times years ago. The
last time was probably 20 years ago on a Merit.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"H K" wrote in message
...
On 10/17/09 6:52 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K
wrote:



How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped?

In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have.

Once, but I've done very little boating.
Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad.
Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full
of water.
It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened.
But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality
mishaps. Pretty sure anyway.

--Vic



Well, on smaller round bottom boats, it's not that hard to be capsized.
It's harder on 18' and larger wide flat-bottomed or vee or semi vee hulls,
but, of course, it's not impossible. Plenty of guys go way out in the
ocean with small boats, and have for centuries. I've done it on good days
with weather reports and a constant eye on the horizon.

On the Bay, which usually only has a constant chop or two-footers, the
biggest problem seems to being run down by old farts in monster power
cruisers, or hit by sailboaters during the high heat when their captains
are semi-comatose. But that's mostly outside of Annapolis harbor.



Small flat bottom boats flip all the time. Mostly Boston Whalers. They may
not sink, but they need hand rails on the bottom. Which SOLAS lifeboats do
have.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
Of course the first "prevention" is to avoid getting knocked down.
Now you don't have to say that.
This discusses a inflated masthead bag for the F-27, and also examples
of righting procedures for the F-27.
The F-27 is a trimaran, which affords it huge advantages for righting.
Maybe my favorite boat.
Right up there with the Mac 26X/M, but for different reasons.
http://www.f-boat.com/pages/backgrou...zearticle.html

Monohulls can be so equipped too, but if hatches aren't sealed, most
will just sink like a rock when knocked down unless equipped with
positive buoyancy foam.
Like the Mac 26M/X is.
Sure, some owners have retro-fitted their boats with foam, but those
aren't properly engineered and tank-tested.
Amateur stuff and probably just more food for Davy Jones.
But it's skiffs that got me thinking about this, because open boats
are easily swamped, whereupon they are prone to rolling over
Sure, a bit of hull sticks out of the water when the boat is
constructed with positive buoyancy.
Doesn't mean you can roll it back over, or that it's a good platform
for survival.
The NFL players lost off Tampa a while back are a good example.
Four very strong men couldn't right that boat, which was well
designed, and level floating when capsized. They tried.
Had they been able to, they could have bailed and survived.
So for typical open powerboats which might be subject to swamping and
capsize, I'm thinking inflatable airbags on both gunnels..
Activation could be manual and/or automatic upon immersion.
Keep that boat from rolling over when swamped.
The engineering is straightforward and easily accomplished.
The system would be lightweight and not affect boat performance.
What's the problem? A number.
1. Cost. Might add a couple/few grand to the boat cost.
2. Cosmetics - some bulkiness or bumps on the gunnels.
3. Liability - if you sell it, it has to work - every time.
Maybe there's disclaimers for that - I'm not a lawyer.
4. Safety ain't no fun.
5. But the biggest problem by far - I don't have my own boat
manufacturing company.
Somebody could market these systems to clamp onto the gunnels
of any boat. Add some cupholders to ensure sales. Maybe an iPod
option. Be creative.

--Vic

Vic, if you put auto inflating bags on both gunwhales you will enure that
you will never get her upright again but she will float nice and high while
upside down.
The Royal National Lifeboat Institution in Uk used to have boats that were
inherently self righting but such a boat does tend to turn over more often
than necessary which is a pain even if it rights itself afterwards.
Modern lifeboats are not inherently self righting but instead have an
automaically inflating buoyancy bag which is centrally mounted in the
superstructure so it exerts maximum righting leverage whichever way she
turns over.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:21:53 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:



Vic, if you put auto inflating bags on both gunwhales you will enure that
you will never get her upright again but she will float nice and high while
upside down.

That seems counterintuitive. The gunnel bags would be inflated before
the roll over. If the boat is already turtled or rolling past the
ability of the bag buoyancy to right it when inflated, it would be as
you say. That's a no-no. (-:
But in case you're talking about heavy seas flipping a boat, you're
absolutely right. Bags on the gunnels are worthless.
I was thinking about the more common swamping situations.
Anyway, without thorough testing and an understanding of the
weight/buoyancy dynamics of a particular boat I wouldn't stand by any
contraption I propose.

The Royal National Lifeboat Institution in Uk used to have boats that were
inherently self righting but such a boat does tend to turn over more often
than necessary which is a pain even if it rights itself afterwards.
Modern lifeboats are not inherently self righting but instead have an
automaically inflating buoyancy bag which is centrally mounted in the
superstructure so it exerts maximum righting leverage whichever way she
turns over.

That's similar to the masthead bags for sailboats. Then the problem
becomes righting the boat from a laid down position.
I was thinking that a good system for an open boat would prevent the
capsize due to swamping, and leave only the bailing.
No need to go outside the gunnels.
But on that subject of righting, my recollection of righting small
boats is that once one gunnel is free of the water, the rest of it
goes pretty easy as that side lightens right up as water leaves it.
Then the only issues left are not to let inertia roll it again on the
other side, and getting it bailed out.
The boats I righted always had me standing on the bottom, so muscles
can be well-used.
Totally different than doing it while afloat, which from what I've
seen is darn near impossible without motor power, unless it's a very
light weight boat, even with a crew of strong men.
If I were in the business of righting small boats, I'd carry a rig to
make an A-frame over a capsized hull to get some leverage.
Maybe 10-12 foot scaffolding type tubes. One side has a hook to go
over the offside gunnel, one side a clamp for the nearside gunnel on a
u-joint. Both are joined at the apex, where a line is attached.
Should make it a lot easier to roll the boat back over pulling on the
nearside, whether with a power boat or men in the water.
Man, I wish I lived by that warm Florida water where I could monkey
around with this stuff. That would be fun. If the fishing is slow,
go play with turtled boats.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K
wrote:


How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped?

In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have.

Once, but I've done very little boating.
Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad.
Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full
of water.
It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened.
But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality
mishaps. Pretty sure anyway.

--Vic

Top causes of accidents:
Number of Accidents/Number of Deaths/Number of Injuries
1 Collision with Vessel 1237 60 856
2 Flooding/swamping 475 89 179
3 Collision with Fixed Object 446 53 328
4 Falls Overboard 431 188 257
5 Skier Mishap 383 10 397

However, when we look at "all accident types" we find that capsizes
actually have more deaths from a smaller number of (reported) accidents:

Accidents/Vessels Involved/Drowning/Other Deaths/Total Deaths
All Accident Types 4789 6347 510 199 709
Capsizing 348 359 163 26 189
Carbon Monoxide Exposure 18 19 0 11 11
Collision with Fixed Object 446 501 23 30 53
Collision with Floating Object 59 64 4 1 5
Collision with Vessel 1237 2547 11 49 60
Departed Vessel 87 106 37 0 37
Ejected from Vessel 123 135 11 6 17
Electrocution 0 0 0 0 0
Fall in Vessel 140 147 1 1 2
Fall on Vessel 62 66 0 1 1
Falls Overboard 431 447 157 31 188
Fire/Explosion (fuel) 136 29 0 1 1
Fire/Explosion (non-fuel) 78 164 1 1 2
Fire/Explosion (Unknown origin) 25 84 2 0 2
Flooding/Swamping 475 497 80 9 89
Grounding 322 330 3 10 13
Sinking 16 16 0 2 2
Skier Mishap 383 398 6 4 10
Struck by Vessel 37 51 0 2 2
Struck by Propeller 83 86 0 5 5
Struck Submerged Object 154 154 4 1 5
Other 123 141 4 5 9
Unknown 6 6 3 3 6

So adding all deaths from capsize and Flooding/Swamping we have 278, or
39% of the total of 709.

Looking further, of the 359 capsizes, only 5 were by Aux Sail and 22 by
Sail only. Also, of the total 709 deaths, 15 were Aux sail, 10 were
other sail. One odd item jumped out: of the 15 deaths in Aux Sail, 8
were age 60-69. I guess I should be writing a will.

I looked at 2007 to see if this was an anomaly, and then, 4 out of 18
were 60-69. However, leaving out the "unknown age," 10 out of 14 were
50 or older.

BTW, Aux Sailboat make up a bit over 1% of the boats with power, so the
15 deaths are more than their share, but its still a small enough number
that people will think the are relatively safe. Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

from:
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...stics_2008.pdf