"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...
"Edgar" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though
falling off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats"
out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least
a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths
last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.



Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago.
Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of
the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is
why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red
PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters.
I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a
sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely
out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the
tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where
he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only
charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I
heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker
entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.
Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power,
but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take
a chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat.

Nope, you're a sailboat.

You could reach over and put it in gear.

Yup. That's the important part: if putting it in gear was all that was
need to avoid the accident then the sailboat would have at least partial
blame.

Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored
powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored,

If its anchored, it isn't "underway" and therefore has no particular
obligation as a "power-driven" vessel. (Unless, of course, you anchor in
a channel.)

you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when
the engine is running?

But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And
yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing,
insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat. Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a
generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not
have props as far as I know. Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Edgar" wrote in message
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why
my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD
when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am
in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is
headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging
battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a
sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF
Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

I a bit confused. First you're talking about a kayak in the fog that you
almost hit because you were going 20 mph when you could hardly see 30
feet. Then you're complaining about the sailboat doing 10-12 (and what
kind of sailboat goes 10-12, other than mine?) and doesn't see your wife's
kayak. Sounds like anyone who comes near you or your wife is clearly at
fault!

And what's your point about misbehaving sailboats? Sure there are rude
and/or ignorant sailors, but certainly not in greater proportion than
power boater (or kayakers, for that matter). Frankly, the sailors and the
small boat fisherman annoy me at times, but what really scares me are the
sportfishers doing 30 knots in pea soup, because with radar and gps they
think they're invincible.



My wife's kayak was hit a glancing blow by a sail boat without anybody
looking where it was going. Guy is in the back doing somethinng, but not
piloting the boat. He was not near my wife, he hit the kayak and kept
going! I could see other boats in the light fog, but the shell was white,
low in the water, and he is wearing white and is crossing the channel. Put
up an orange flag, or something to make yourself visable. I could see the
other boats a lot further away than a low, white shell. I see where others
annoy you as you figure you have the "right of way"over all other type
craft.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.



Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.

Training schools approved and monitored by USCG.



That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it
happens.

My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored,
certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and
that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about
regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though
falling off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats"
out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least
a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths
last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble
convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of
idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago.
Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle
of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not
the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'.
Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright
red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of
sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got
hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get
completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with
something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not
looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at
the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and
lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't
either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in
front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he
was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is
a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the right of
way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and
wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power,
but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral,
I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to
see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why
take a chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not
in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the
motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over
and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into
neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when
anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail
status when the engine is running?

No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat,
unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the
anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway.
If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look
it up.

I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court
would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a
powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it
is accurate in practice.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes,
when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An
anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could
start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is going
to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage motor
an drive boat.

I have no idea what the court would say. I suspect there would a lot of
arguments for both sides, but the law itself is pretty clear. The vessel
must be actually propelled.

I've only seen one sailboat with the dayshape in 30 yrs of sailing on the
bay. It was way over 12 meters.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:40:16 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.



Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.

Training schools approved and monitored by USCG.



That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it
happens.

Actually it might be a good thing in terms of educating the chowder
heads who go around motoring with their mainsail up, and trying to
press for right of way.


My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored,
certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and
that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about
regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)?

License classes. Several different instructors have told me that
admiralty courts have ruled that if propulsion is on and available,
then the boat can not be considered under sail for purposes of
collision avoidance.

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
ons...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However,
Kayak sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though
falling off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats"
out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at
least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths
last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a
disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think
they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble
convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and
kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of
idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost
ran over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years
ago. Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the
middle of the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph
and not the ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot
at 30'. Is why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear
a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot
of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife
got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not
get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with
something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not
looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at
the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and
lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't
either. I have had sailboats with the motor running turn directly in
front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe
he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor
running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had
the right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be
both dead, and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power,
but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral,
I consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to
see the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him.
Why take a chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not
in gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the
motor is on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over
and put it in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into
neutral. If an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when
anchored, you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail
status when the engine is running?

No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat,
unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the
anchor comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway.
If you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look
it up.

I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court
would react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself
a powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but
it is accurate in practice.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes,
when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An
anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could
start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is
going to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage
motor an drive boat.

I have no idea what the court would say. I suspect there would a lot of
arguments for both sides, but the law itself is pretty clear. The vessel
must be actually propelled.

I've only seen one sailboat with the dayshape in 30 yrs of sailing on the
bay. It was way over 12 meters.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




The rule is under power, not propelled.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You should
have said 'cone apex downward'

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:40:16 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.
That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.


Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.
Training schools approved and monitored by USCG.


That's too bad. It's not been my experience out here, but I suppose it
happens.

Actually it might be a good thing in terms of educating the chowder
heads who go around motoring with their mainsail up, and trying to
press for right of way.

My understanding is that the approved schools really aren't monitored,
certainly not closely. They typically get the curriculum approved, and
that's about it beside submitting the completed tests. You're talking about
regular sailing schools or license classes (e.g., OUPV, 100GT)?

License classes. Several different instructors have told me that
admiralty courts have ruled that if propulsion is on and available,
then the boat can not be considered under sail for purposes of
collision avoidance.

There's a (slightly) subtle point here. If you had power available and
did not use it to avoid a collision, that's your bad. On the other
hand, you can't look at a sailboat and say "He looks like a chowderhead,
I'll bet he has his motor running" and treat him as a powerboat.

Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And
yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing,
insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its
pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine
that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many
sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port.

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine,
an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in
gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a
long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with
an engine running that was not available for use.

Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a
generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not
have props as far as I know.

So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.

Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the
rules, we'll forgive you for that.

And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has
claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at
the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling
machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to
avoid a collision.

On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.