"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:05:02 -0400, "mmc" wrote:

On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, meaning if
the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull
rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave
pushed
the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to
rotate on it's long axis.

Once the mast of a monohull gets rotated past horizontal, i.e. well
into the water, it usually breaks.

I'd think that would depend on the mast configuration and rig strength,
right? For instance, a Westsail 32 would probably come through something
like this in a lot better shape than a Hunter 30.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat
doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next
yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when
paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a
sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed.
I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the
hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the
other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running
turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters
say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor
running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the
right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead,
and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I
agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw
water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article m, mmc wrote:

Don't know if anyone else has pitched in on this. A ballasted keel mono hull
sail boat wants to right itself the more it heels due to the ballast and
leverage. Monohulls get knocked down at sea and stand back up on thier own,
unlike thier multihull counterparts. I guess if a sailor is real lucky and
the hull is lying across the wind and you get a good gust it could push the
boat upright but if the sails are still set, it might just keep going over
and back into the same predicament.

Wind doesn't capsize keelboats, waves do. Wind may knock it flat, but
nowhere near enough to capsize. Once the boat has been knocked flat the
wind no longer has any effect, as soon as the gust has passed the boat
comes back up-righ.

If a keelboat does capsize, and, as I think you're saying, the wind
against the keel is enough to right the boat, all a strong wind can
do is knock the boat down again, not capsize it.

Of course, anything that's not ballasted is a going to experience
things differently.


The flotation at the masthead is an idea that Hobie came out with way back
when, necessary to keep the boat from "turtling" when the mast fills with
water. With a Hobie, turtling would be a huge PITA, with a larger multi
nothing short of a crane is going to make things right (or upright haha).
There's a thing called "righting moment" when talking about mono hulls which
is the point the hull has to attain in order for the boat to recover from
turtling. On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees,

I think you mean the angle of vanishing stability. The "righting moment"
is completely different, it isn't a point, it's a measure of force that
is calculated by multiplying the distance between the centre of gravity
and centre of buoyancy by the boat mass.

Your AVS may be 165 degrees (that's very high). What that means is that
when the boat is tipped that far from upright it is as likely to fully
capsize as it is likely to come back upright. The correlation of this is
that, as you say, tipping from inverted by more than 15 degrees would
cause your boat to right.

meaning if
the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull
rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed
the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to
rotate on it's long axis.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over
a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a
white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel
area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35
knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going
to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of
the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the
right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a
yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n
around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is
not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at
the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards.
Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had
sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90
degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and
only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I
heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker
entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.



Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats"
out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago.
Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of
the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is
why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red
PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters.
I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a
sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely
out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the
tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where
he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only
charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard
a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering
SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but
I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take
a chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in
gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an
anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the
court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is
running?

No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless
the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment
has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear
about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up.

I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would
react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a
powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is
accurate in practice.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:01:01 +0100, Justin C
wrote:

In article m, mmc wrote:

Don't know if anyone else has pitched in on this. A ballasted keel mono hull
sail boat wants to right itself the more it heels due to the ballast and
leverage. Monohulls get knocked down at sea and stand back up on thier own,
unlike thier multihull counterparts. I guess if a sailor is real lucky and
the hull is lying across the wind and you get a good gust it could push the
boat upright but if the sails are still set, it might just keep going over
and back into the same predicament.

Wind doesn't capsize keelboats, waves do. Wind may knock it flat, but
nowhere near enough to capsize. Once the boat has been knocked flat the
wind no longer has any effect, as soon as the gust has passed the boat
comes back up-righ.

If a keelboat does capsize, and, as I think you're saying, the wind
against the keel is enough to right the boat, all a strong wind can
do is knock the boat down again, not capsize it.

Assuming any sort of sailing yacht, i.e., something other then a day
sailor,having an enclosed cabin, a simple wave does not capsize the
boat. Breaking waves, yes; or waves that are so high that the boat
gains excessive speed on the downward slope so that it digs its nose
in the next wave and pitch poles, but even a tsunami wave doesn't
appear to roll a sail boat over - at least not in Thailand :-)

Of course, anything that's not ballasted is a going to experience
things differently.


The flotation at the masthead is an idea that Hobie came out with way back
when, necessary to keep the boat from "turtling" when the mast fills with
water. With a Hobie, turtling would be a huge PITA, with a larger multi
nothing short of a crane is going to make things right (or upright haha).
There's a thing called "righting moment" when talking about mono hulls which
is the point the hull has to attain in order for the boat to recover from
turtling. On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees,

I think you mean the angle of vanishing stability. The "righting moment"
is completely different, it isn't a point, it's a measure of force that
is calculated by multiplying the distance between the centre of gravity
and centre of buoyancy by the boat mass.

Your AVS may be 165 degrees (that's very high). What that means is that
when the boat is tipped that far from upright it is as likely to fully
capsize as it is likely to come back upright. The correlation of this is
that, as you say, tipping from inverted by more than 15 degrees would
cause your boat to right.

meaning if
the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull
rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed
the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to
rotate on it's long axis.

Justin.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That
is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention
to lights and dayshapes.

Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is
somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow,
stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so
much.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:47:59 -0700, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
reasolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why
my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD
when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am
in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is
headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging
battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a
sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF
Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but
I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in
gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral.


Sorry, but although that is what YOU think makes sense, it is not the
law.

If an
anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the
court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is
running?


Absolutely! In court, evidence is debated to arrive at a decision. If
I can convince the court that my motor was running but not engaged,
then that will be the finding.