"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why
my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD
when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am
in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is
headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging
battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a
sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF
Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but
I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in
gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an
anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the
court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is
running?

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That
is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention
to lights and dayshapes.

Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is
somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow,
stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so
much.


If I see a black sphere in your rigging I will assume that you are anchored,
since that's what that shape says. A steaming sailboat requires an inverted
cone shape. How many have one aboard; how many actually deploy it?

--
KLC Lewis

WISCONSIN
Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping
www.KLCLewisStudios.com

In article ,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That
is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention
to lights and dayshapes.

Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is
somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow,
stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so
much.


If I see a black sphere in your rigging I will assume that you are anchored,
since that's what that shape says. A steaming sailboat requires an inverted
cone shape. How many have one aboard; how many actually deploy it?

Oh Gawd, Salty is back.. I guess he thinks we all forgot about his boy
love rants on alt.americanidol.boys. If you see any flag on Salty's
boat, best to just run him over and save some young boy from his
filth...

Bill McKee wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...
"Edgar" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.



Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why
my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD
when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am
in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is
headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging
battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a
sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF
Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.
Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but
I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat.

Nope, you're a sailboat.

You could reach over and put it in gear.

Yup. That's the important part: if putting it in gear was all that was
need to avoid the accident then the sailboat would have at least partial
blame.

Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an
anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored,

If its anchored, it isn't "underway" and therefore has no particular
obligation as a "power-driven" vessel. (Unless, of course, you anchor
in a channel.)

you think the
court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is
running?

But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat.
(And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail
luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That
is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention
to lights and dayshapes.

Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is
somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow,
stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so
much.


If I see a black sphere in your rigging I will assume that you are
anchored, since that's what that shape says. A steaming sailboat requires
an inverted cone shape. How many have one aboard; how many actually deploy
it?


I've never heard of the CG enforcing that with sailboats, even though they
could if they wanted to. It doesn't apply to my boat, since it's under 12
meters. The rule doesn't say anything about an engine running.

Rule 25:

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape,
apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required
to exhibit this shape, but may do so.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

That's not the way I was taught. I was taught that a boat should behave
as it appears, which is why a "drift fisherman" is still a powerboat
(i.e. underway, not making way). If the sailboat looks like its
sailing, the other boat has to treat is though its a sailboat.

But the over-riding point is that if an accident could be prevented by
simply putting it in gear, the sailboat is obligated to do so.

But this brings up the point: if a sailboat has an electric motor, then
by your logic its always a powerboat, because you only have to flip a
switch to be "engaged."

Bill McKee wrote:
"Edgar" wrote in message
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over
a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a
white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel
area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35
knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going
to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of
the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the
right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a
yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n
around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is
not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at
the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards.
Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had
sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90
degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and
only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I
heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker
entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.


I a bit confused. First you're talking about a kayak in the fog that
you almost hit because you were going 20 mph when you could hardly see
30 feet. Then you're complaining about the sailboat doing 10-12 (and
what kind of sailboat goes 10-12, other than mine?) and doesn't see your
wife's kayak. Sounds like anyone who comes near you or your wife is
clearly at fault!

And what's your point about misbehaving sailboats? Sure there are rude
and/or ignorant sailors, but certainly not in greater proportion than
power boater (or kayakers, for that matter). Frankly, the sailors and
the small boat fisherman annoy me at times, but what really scares me
are the sportfishers doing 30 knots in pea soup, because with radar and
gps they think they're invincible.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:22:30 -0400, wrote:

if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

Not true. That is a dangerously misleading statement.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:29:14 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.



Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.

Training schools approved and monitored by USCG.

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though
falling off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats"
out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least
a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths
last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago.
Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of
the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is
why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red
PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters.
I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a
sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely
out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the
tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where
he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only
charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I
heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker
entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power,
but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take
a chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it
in gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If
an anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think
the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the
engine is running?

No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat,
unless the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor
comment has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If
you're unclear about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it
up.

I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would
react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a
powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it
is accurate in practice.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




The motor on, and I bet the law would say power boat. As to day shapes,
when was the last time you saw a recreational boater flying them. An
anchored power boat is still a power boat in the laws eyes, and you could
start the engine and drive out of the way. Same reason the court is going
to find against a sailboater with motor running. You could engage motor an
drive boat.