"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:46:42 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

A genset is not a propulsion engine obviously.

The issue here is not so much with other boats recognizing who is
legally under sail, but rather with the behavior of the sail boat.
If the skipper of a sailboat with the propulsion engine running
continues to behave as the stand-on vessel when otherwise burdened, he
is breaking the rules and creating a dangerous situation. This is
actually quite logical when you think about it. Otherwise a give-way
sailboat under power could simply shift into neutral and reclaim the
right-of-way at the last minute.



Exactly. If I have my engine on (don't own a genset), I consider myself a
powerboat and act accordingly. No confusion is possible from other boats.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article lutions, Capt. JG wrote:

Rule 25:

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape,
apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required
to exhibit this shape, but may do so.

Those damn rules should be read, read, and re-read. Something new is
uncovered every time. I shan't worry about not displaying my cone in
future!

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

Capt. JG wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an
elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear
without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long
sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an
engine running that was not available for use.

I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really
need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under
load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip, I
start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and
leave. It's never stalled yet.


All I can say is that once warmed up, it ran fine. But if I went into
gear too soon, it would cough and die. It was, IIRC, a "30" based on a
Mitsubishi block. My newer Yanmar 2GM20F's are much better, starting
almost instantly, and ready to go in less than a minute (but I still
wait 5 minutes, out of habit). I've also known Atomic 4's that had to
warm up, but if you knew the engine well you could compensate with the
choke.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


One basic problem with his practice is that it leads to confusion by
other vessels, who will be expecting his vessel to act as what it
really is. Not much different from the chucklehead on land who trys
and give the right of way to others at a 4 way stop, when it is his
turn to go. Suddenly, order evaporates and no one knows what to expect
or do. This is followed by all cars lurching and stopping as they play
guessing games in the intersection.

How's that? If someone on another boat sees water flowing out of the back,
they would assume that I'm a powerboat. If they know the rules, they would
assume I'm likely required to take action, which I would do.

Who says other boats can even see water coming out the back of your
boat? Chances are probably better that they can't in most situations.

If they can't see it, and it's not a situation where it's an issue, then
it's, um, not an issue. So, I don't see what point you're trying to make.
There's nothing in the colregs that says I can't change course, use
courtesy, etc., when in non-emergency situations.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine,
an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in
gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a
long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with
an engine running that was not available for use.

I'm wondering if there was something wrong with it? Diesels don't really
need much of a warm up. They like being under load and warm up when under
load. I don't warm up my Westerbeke (13). If I'm going to leave the slip,
I start, put it in reverse after about 30 seconds, perhaps a minute, and
leave. It's never stalled yet.


All I can say is that once warmed up, it ran fine. But if I went into
gear too soon, it would cough and die. It was, IIRC, a "30" based on a
Mitsubishi block. My newer Yanmar 2GM20F's are much better, starting
almost instantly, and ready to go in less than a minute (but I still wait
5 minutes, out of habit). I've also known Atomic 4's that had to warm up,
but if you knew the engine well you could compensate with the choke.


A4s.... I've always warmed them up. Never had to do that with my Weste.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
om...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland.


See ya!

"Justin C" wrote in message
...
In article lutions,
Capt. JG wrote:

Rule 25:

(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by
machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical
shape,
apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not
required
to exhibit this shape, but may do so.

Those damn rules should be read, read, and re-read. Something new is
uncovered every time. I shan't worry about not displaying my cone in
future!

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.


Yep... I read an abbreviated version of (e) at one point, and I almost
bought a day shape.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:4tvpd5h39fd4mbash5csh0tr2lupfqski5@4ax. com...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these
days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the
collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid
a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot
where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland.


See ya!


So, you don't have the ability to respond. Ok, you can have the last word if
you want it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:50:44 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
om...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:4tvpd5h39fd4mbash5csh0tr2lupfqski5@4ax .com...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these
days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the
collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid
a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot
where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland.


See ya!


So, you don't have the ability to respond. Ok, you can have the last word if
you want it.

What a queer response!

Really, Jon. Put down the shovel.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:53:59 -0400, H the K
wrote:

On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

I had a Mercedes industrial tractor that need half an hour, full
throttle under load, to fully warm up. It would produce near full
power when pretty cold, fortunately.

Casady