Maxprop wrote:
Your derision of my comment makes the presumption that I might actually give
a rat's posterior

Well, do you give a rat's posterior about making a posterior of
yourselve when you express opinions that are (shall we tactfully say)
not rooted in fact?





You can build a lot and still build well. You can also build custom boats
that are crap. It all depends on where the money goes.


True, but you cite the exceptions rather than the rule.

If there are exceptions, then citing the rule and insisting that your
enxamined and uninformed judgement must be considered axiomatic is not
exactly wise.


... The boats
you seem to be defending have a lengthy reputation for building
cookie-cutter boats for the low-end market and for the charter market.

The only boat(s) I'm defending is Jeanneau, which has built a wide range
of non-mass-produced-crap boats. But you don't want to know about them.



Never heard of a Stellar.


Custom. Premium in every respect.

OK I will keep my eyes peeled for one.



I've been aboard a couple of Flemings, and they are very nice.

Did you go down into the engine room?


.... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler?
Most impressive, especially considering the price.

Never heard of them either.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
Your derision of my comment makes the presumption that I might actually
give a rat's posterior

Well, do you give a rat's posterior about making a posterior of yourselve
when you express opinions that are (shall we tactfully say) not rooted in
fact?

Only on Usenet will someone jump down your throat for not being completely
and inexorably pedantic w/r/t your opinions. After twenty years of
observing mediocre Jeanneaus at shows, on the docks, and in marina
showrooms, most rational people would conclude that Jeanneau builds boats to
a price line and nothing particularly exceptional. Having seen no evidence
to the contrary, either in the flesh or in print, it would not be imprudent
to draw such a conclusion. But then along comes the ubiquitous Usenet
bully, living his daily life for the opportunity to lambast someone whose
knowledge was perhaps not quite as esoteric w/r/t the subject at hand as his
own. And he labels his target with such terms as stupid, ignorant, horse's
ass, and myriad other appellations, simply because the target's observations
weren't perhaps precisely correct, despite the fact that they were the
accurate with respect to his observations and those of most others. A bit
of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in personal
relationships. I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people
at your marina when they are in minor error.

True, but you cite the exceptions rather than the rule.

If there are exceptions, then citing the rule and insisting that your
enxamined and uninformed judgement must be considered axiomatic is not
exactly wise.

It's completely normal and quite predictable, outside of the know-it-all's
paradise, otherwise known as Usenet. I'm betting that nearly 100% of
sailors polled as to the quality range of Jeanneau boats at, say, a Sail
America show, would agree with my assessment. We might be wrong, but with
respect to the boats that Jeanneau sells in the US, we're not incorrect.
Would it be wrong to conclude that Hunter largely builds low-end boats to a
price, despite the fact that Warren Luhrs built a few of the most powerful,
strongest, and advanced custom round-the-world racers?


... The boats you seem to be defending have a lengthy reputation for
building cookie-cutter boats for the low-end market and for the charter
market.

The only boat(s) I'm defending is Jeanneau, which has built a wide range
of non-mass-produced-crap boats. But you don't want to know about them.

LOL. I never said any such thing. YOU made that leap of illogic. I only
told you what I'd observed. You corrected me, and I stand corrected, much
as it pains me to do so, having been chastised by a Usenet hardass. g

Custom. Premium in every respect.

OK I will keep my eyes peeled for one.

Not a lot of Stellars around these parts. I think they're made in NZ or
perhaps somewhere in Europe. They were so far out of my price range that I
never bothered to find out much about them. Just a lot of ooohs and aaaahs.

I've been aboard a couple of Flemings, and they are very nice.

Did you go down into the engine room?

Yes. Amazing. Full headroom, spotless as a galley, and wonderfully roomy.
Unfortunately it was about 90F and humid that day, and the engine room was
about 110 with a monster genset running to power the A/C, so I didn't
linger.

.... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most
impressive, especially considering the price.

Never heard of them either.

Saw my first one this August. Amazing quality and finish, and another
engine room that's really a by-God engine room. 500hp and 18kts--another
big engined trawler--but the details and layout were among the best I've
seen on any boat of comparable size. Priced around $600K, they compare most
favorably against similarly-sized trawlers costing about $400K more. Built
in Taiwan, I believe, and still waaay out of my price range.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
... A bit
of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in personal
relationships.

Sure. Does this mean you're changing your style?

... I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people
at your marina when they are in minor error.

Are you under the impression that I've jumped all over you? Just trying
to help you correct a mistake.



..... I'm betting that nearly 100% of
sailors polled as to the quality range of Jeanneau boats at, say, a Sail
America show, would agree with my assessment.

Does that make it a fact? Are we into faith-based boat construction
these days?



Would it be wrong to conclude that Hunter largely builds low-end boats to a
price, despite the fact that Warren Luhrs built a few of the most powerful,
strongest, and advanced custom round-the-world racers?

AFAIK his only round-the-world racer broke before finishing. 'Route 66'
was a pretty cool boat, but I understand it also has structural issues
and last I heard it was on the market asking pennies on the dollar.

Anyway there is a difference between saying "Hunter largely builds
low-end boats" and allowing for a few exceptions, and saying "Everthing
that ever had the Hunter name on it is a sorry POS."

OTOH one can also make so many qualifications & exceptions as to makes
one's statements functionally useless.


.... You corrected me, and I stand corrected, much
as it pains me to do so, having been chastised by a Usenet hardass. g

Well, good.



Not a lot of Stellars around these parts. I think they're made in NZ or
perhaps somewhere in Europe. They were so far out of my price range that I
never bothered to find out much about them. Just a lot of ooohs and aaaahs.


I've been aboard a couple of Flemings, and they are very nice.

Did you go down into the engine room?


Yes. Amazing. Full headroom, spotless as a galley, and wonderfully roomy.

The thing I liked about it was the layout, routing, and access to all
systems. Very professional. Also, in a compartment like the engine room,
all the build quality issues like structural details, wiring & plumbing
runs, etc etc, are all laid out in plain sight. A boat can not be well
built and have a poor engine space.

Unfortunately it was about 90F and humid that day, and the engine room was
about 110 with a monster genset running to power the A/C, so I didn't
linger.


Comes with the territory

You mentioned "spotless"... One nice thing, an engine room that is well
laid out is easy to keep clean. I'm a firm believer that cleanliness
makes a big difference in long term maintenaince.


.... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most
impressive, especially considering the price.

Never heard of them either.


Saw my first one this August. Amazing quality and finish, and another
engine room that's really a by-God engine room. 500hp and 18kts--another
big engined trawler--but the details and layout were among the best I've
seen on any boat of comparable size. Priced around $600K, they compare most
favorably against similarly-sized trawlers costing about $400K more. Built
in Taiwan, I believe, and still waaay out of my price range.


In this credit-crazed society, you can afford anything you can talk
somebody else into financing for you.

After you mentioned it, I googled up the Symbol 45. Nice looking boat.
Palatial... 'way more accomodation than we need. I like the side decks
too, too many of these boats (including the Nordhaven) don't really have
a good deck layout.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message

Maxprop wrote:
... A bit of tolerance and flexibility go a long way, both here and in
personal relationships.

Sure. Does this mean you're changing your style?

... I'm guessing you don't jump all over your friends and people at your
marina when they are in minor error.

Are you under the impression that I've jumped all over you? Just trying to
help you correct a mistake.

You tend to have an abrasive, less-than-tactful way of doing so. At times I
get the impression of rancor on your part during such discussions, which is
baffling, considering the relative lack of importance of such non-issues.

..... I'm betting that nearly 100% of sailors polled as to the quality
range of Jeanneau boats at, say, a Sail America show, would agree with my
assessment.

Does that make it a fact? Are we into faith-based boat construction these
days?

I would not buy a Jeanneau. Period. None of the examples I've seen did
much to impress me with either construction quality or wisdom of design.
They have all been cookie-cutter bleach bottles. Oh sure, there may be a
dozen or so superb Jeanneau-built boats resting at docks in some obscure
corners of the world, but I've never seen 'em, and no one else appears to
have either. What Jeanneau imports to this country is Beneteau-level stuff.
That is fact enough for me.

Would it be wrong to conclude that Hunter largely builds low-end boats to
a price, despite the fact that Warren Luhrs built a few of the most
powerful, strongest, and advanced custom round-the-world racers?


AFAIK his only round-the-world racer broke before finishing. 'Route 66'
was a pretty cool boat, but I understand it also has structural issues and
last I heard it was on the market asking pennies on the dollar.

Anyway there is a difference between saying "Hunter largely builds low-end
boats" and allowing for a few exceptions, and saying "Everthing that ever
had the Hunter name on it is a sorry POS."

Your two immediate paragraphs seem to support the latter.

OTOH one can also make so many qualifications & exceptions as to makes
one's statements functionally useless.

Sort of like your contention that Jeanneau is not a low-end builder, eh?

.... You corrected me, and I stand corrected, much as it pains me to do
so, having been chastised by a Usenet hardass. g

Well, good.

And of course you and I have solved nothing, apart from trading barbs.

Yes. Amazing. Full headroom, spotless as a galley, and wonderfully
roomy.


The thing I liked about it was the layout, routing, and access to all
systems. Very professional. Also, in a compartment like the engine room,
all the build quality issues like structural details, wiring & plumbing
runs, etc etc, are all laid out in plain sight. A boat can not be well
built and have a poor engine space.

I had the opportunity to tour a couple of Palmer Johnson mega yachts a few
years back in Wisconsin. One was just completed and on its way to Florida.
The salesman said, "Please excuse the engine room, as we've still got some
more work to do down there. I kept my mouth shut, but they had one hell of
a lot of work to do, IMO. Nothing was finalized, wires and conduits were
everywhere, and I was surprised that the boat was about to be fueled and
gotten underway. If that's PJ's concept of a fine engine space, I'd never
want one of their boats, not that I could ever afford one. The second boat
was in for service, and its engine space, while neater and farily well
finished, was not even on par with those seen in Hatteras boats of much more
diminutive dimensions. The only thing I could say about the engine room of
either boat was, "Holy ****, this is huge."

You mentioned "spotless"... One nice thing, an engine room that is well
laid out is easy to keep clean. I'm a firm believer that cleanliness makes
a big difference in long term maintenaince.

Agreed. Apparently many so-called yachtsmen don't seem to agree. The first
place I look in any boat I'm considering buying is the engine space and the
wiring. If they're dirty or poorly laid-out, I walk and save myself a lot
of time.


.... Have you seen a new Symbol 45 Pilothouse fast trawler? Most
impressive, especially considering the price.

Never heard of them either.


Saw my first one this August. Amazing quality and finish, and another
engine room that's really a by-God engine room. 500hp and 18kts--another
big engined trawler--but the details and layout were among the best I've
seen on any boat of comparable size. Priced around $600K, they compare
most favorably against similarly-sized trawlers costing about $400K more.
Built in Taiwan, I believe, and still waaay out of my price range.


In this credit-crazed society, you can afford anything you can talk
somebody else into financing for you.

That's very true, but the Hatteras rep with whom I spoke last August told me
that many of their buyers of their larger boats pay cash. And many are
repeat customers. I wouldn't be surprised if you see the same people in
front of the hotel there in New Bern taking the keys to new Hatteras yachts
from time to time.


After you mentioned it, I googled up the Symbol 45. Nice looking boat.
Palatial... 'way more accomodation than we need. I like the side decks
too, too many of these boats (including the Nordhaven) don't really have a
good deck layout.

Some of the details that I found impressive were proprietary fittings. The
bow roller was a massive, polished stainless affair that had a monstrous
Danforth-type anchor on the rollers. It would easily handle an equally
massive plow or Bruce. The wall thickness of the steel appeared to be about
3/8". The windows, according to the sales lady, were about 3/4" thick
tempered glass. And the grab rails mounted on the cabin sides along the
wide side decks were massive stainless weldments, and very solidly attached.
The bulwarks were over 2' high, and the nonskid was flawless, as was the
rest of the fiberglass work. If the company keeps the quality as high as
this early example, they'll sell plenty of them. I have no idea how they
perform, however.

Max