MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jim claims: Folks, with a 50 hp motor, the boat will sink with a full load,
and
with the water ballast

That's very nice if planing with a 50 hp engine is what you want to do. I'm
sure the guys at alt. motoboater. would be very happy for you.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
- its doesn't have
a double hull either. The portion of the hull the is protected by the
ballast
tank is about a third of the underwater surface - and its the part least
likely
to be damaged in a collision.

The water ballast chamber extends along the lowermost part of the hull
rearwardly from the bow for around 2/3rds of the length of the boat.

But is only extends one third of the width. It is more likely that you will hit
a floating obstruction on the side.


Thus, your inference that only around a third of the hull is protected
by the ballast tank is actually irrelevant,

Only to a non-boater with no experiance.

since if the boat runs over
an obstruction, the lowermost portions of the hull are the part that is
most likely to hit the obstruction and become punctured.

In a boat that only draws one foot it would take a complete idiot to hit a rock
dead on at high speed. Is that what you're claiming, Jim? That this design
feature is only there to protect the complete idiot? Far more likely is a
glancing blow to a floating object.

Obviously, the
boat doesn't have a complete second hull that extends throughout the
entire hull. (Does your boat?)

Actually, my boat has two complete hulls, running the entire length.

.....

the
engine certainly wasted. BTW, they never actually say that there is enough
foam
to float the boat if the engine is attached, do they? Do you think they
destroyed a $8000 engine just to take that picture?

My engine weighs around 200 lbs., so I doubt that it is going to pull
the boat to the bottom. The picture of the boat afloat after they cut a
hole through the hull doesn't show the motor (so its not clear whether
they removed it or not), but it does indicate that, with five men aboard
the boat, the boat has sunk about a foot or so from its normal position.

Look again, Jim, its down to the rail on both sides. Given the very high
freeboard, that's closer to two feet below her lines. The question is, how
much foam floatation is left above the water? That tells you how close it is to
sinking. That picture is taken at the dock - in almost any sea conditions the
deck would be awash amd the boat would flip.

Clearly, positive floatation is a advantage, but its not clear a flooded mac is
a better platform than a liferaft. On the other hand, the time may come when
you decided that unsinkable is a disadvantage.



In other words, with five adult passengers, the boat isn't anywhere near
sinking. 200 lbs of motor not make that much difference, and there is
plenty of capacity for more people, particularly if they didn't try to
stand on top of the cabin.

And, if you have any damage to the ballast tank, it could lose water and the
partially filled tank becomes dangerously unstable. This is not so bad if
you're on a lake where the mac belongs, but offshore this becomes
treacherous.

Actually, the new 26M model has a combination of both water ballast and
permanent ballast. The permanent ballast provides stability for the
boat when the water ballast isn't being used.

Not enough stability, given the stern warnings about aperating without ballast.




So the question is, would you prefer a boat with a solid hull that can
withstand
a beating without being compromised, or one that is likely to be compromised
by
a minor collision?

I would prefer a car with seat belts and air bags, and I would prefer a
boat with foam flotation. I would rather have a boat that would survive
even under critical emergency situations in which the hull was
compromised rather than one that would survive a minor collision but not
a major or critical one, in which case the keel would quickly pull the
boat to the bottom.

I would prefer a good sailboat that provides these advantages. In fact, I have
one. The mac is a poor powerboat, and a worse sailboat.

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

Its funny, the drawing on the web site don't show this to be "double
hulled".
The water ballast is on the center line, not around the chine - it would be
easy
to penetrate the hull with a glancing blow to a rock.

Obviously the Mac don't have a complete double hull extending throughout
the hull and chines. (Does your boat?)

My boat has two complete hulls, running the full length.


But it does have what amounts to
a double hull extending along its lowermost section for most of the
length of the hull.

All this means is that there are some situations where there is some extra
protection. It does not mean you have the full protection that is implied by
"double hull." This is not a real "safety feature," it is just a marketing
claim.

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Folks, with a 50 hp motor, the boat will plane with a full load, and
with the water ballast. As to exactly how fast it can plane with two
people, three people, four people, five people, let me suggest that, in
any event, it's going to go substantially faster than most displacement
boats. It can also plane faster without the water ballast, and the new
26M includes 300 pounds of permenant ballast, in addition to the water
ballast, for added stability in that condition. Obviously, it would be
foolhardy to permit multiple passengers to ride on top of the cabin and
foredeck in the Mac, or any small boat, under those conditions.

What? Are you saying its unsafe to sit forward in a normal power boat? What
about all of those "bowriders" outs there?

The Mac is clearly unsafe without its water ballast. The admonishments include:
no more than 4 people. Keep crew aft, low and centered. The kids can't even
stay in the forward bunk! They actually tell you not to use the forward bunks
when underway! They say it is unsafe in seas higher than one foot! So much
for coming in from offshore. You can't stand on the deck because someone might
grab the mast to hold on! What? They're afraid someone might pull the boat
over trying to hold on??? No, this is not typical of a 26 foot sailboat, nor
is it typical of a 26 foot powerboat.

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:

That's a stupid question. Unexpected winds??? What kind of
sailor would not expect conditions such as this? A stupid or
inexperienced one.

Is there anyone on this ng with extensive sailing experience who hasn't
run into winds higher than were predicted, and higher than he or she
expected?

I've never encountered conditions I wasn't prepared for. I've never assumed
that the ability to get back to port quickly is the primary safety factor.
That's admitting you're completely screwed if the engine doesn't start.



In our area, forecasts can suggest good sailing conditions
with only a slight chance of showers, but storms and severe winds can
form quite quickly.

Get a grip on yourself Johnathan. - Any serious sailor should expect and
be prepared for the possibility that unexpected weather conditions may
occur.


If you were sailing a decent boat, it would survive just about
any high winds that come by. A perfect example is the Satori
from Perfect Storm fame (not the f*cking movie).


The Satori was a heavy boat specifically built to survive severe heavy
weather conditions miles offshore. It had an overbuilt hull, rigging,
keel, etc., etc. I doubt that most sailors on this ng would enjoy
sailing such a boat even if they could afford the substantial additional
costs.


Although the three larger boats (over 22 feet) that I've owned were designed for
coastal cruising, they have all proven themselves capable of long passages. But
you're right that I wouldn't want a Westsail, or even a Valiant.

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

"Jim Cate" wrote ...

I would prefer a car with seat belts and air bags,

Pussy!

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Funny, he never mentioned the problem of blisters, from the inside of the
ballast tank, that Macgregors are infamous for.

SV

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

Its funny, the drawing on the web site don't show this to be "double
hulled".
The water ballast is on the center line, not around the chine - it
would be
easy
to penetrate the hull with a glancing blow to a rock.

Obviously the Mac don't have a complete double hull extending throughout
the hull and chines. (Does your boat?)

My boat has two complete hulls, running the full length.


But it does have what amounts to
a double hull extending along its lowermost section for most of the
length of the hull.

All this means is that there are some situations where there is some extra
protection. It does not mean you have the full protection that is implied
by
"double hull." This is not a real "safety feature," it is just a
marketing
claim.

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Where would you put all the fuel?

Bart

Scott Vernon wrote

Some ''blue water'' sailing in a Mac26XM would do.


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


katysails wrote:
Jim claimed:
I'm not afraid to die.

Prove it.

What would you suggest?

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

John W. Bienko wrote:

Comparing a Mac26M with the remarkable Valiant 40 ...
is a high compliment to the Mac26M.

THe Valiant 40 is a high-end sailor's dream yacht..
always a beautiful sight to see on the sea.. and
in the harbour.

I do agree that the Valiant 40 is a great boat, certainly the best
handling and sailing boat I have had the privilege of sailing.



The Mac26M is a compromise.. between a sailing vessel
and a motorboat.. the nautical engineers working to
meet the wishes and needs of the marketplace.. and in
my view succeeding beyond expectations.. creating a
very attractive yacht.. not perfect.. but getting there
with the state-of-the-art technology of the day.


I also agree with this statement. If I'm correct, the Mac 26 is the
most popular cruising sailboat in production today. What hasn't been
addressed in this discussion is that they have made incremental changes
and improvements in the various models and incorporated a number of
changes and improvements in the new 26M model, based on experiences with
thousands of other boats over the years. These include a completely
different hull design, different, more narrow keel, thicker lower hull
wall entailing with additional fiberglass layer, new chain plates,
different positioning of the motor, pivotable mast, substantially taller
rig, etc.



And some day.. when I can no longer singlehand my
C&C27 Mark III ... I will invest in a Mac26M..
and continue sailing into the sunset...
and dream..

Best Regards
JWB

--
Longing to be closer to to the sun, the wind and the sea!
Spiritually at: Latitude 21 degrees 19' 9" North. _!_
Longtitude 157 degrees 56' 31" West. Aloha! ___o_(_)_o___
q

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

You would really be a fool to even attempt to sail
your Mac in 30 kts. To even suggest it implies that
you know nothing about sailing.


Sure thing Johathan. But if I'm lost at sea, at least you won't have to
waste more of your time reading my notes on asa.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Scott Vernon wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote

are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?

.


Yes it is.


NO, it's NOT


Scott, whether or not you call it double hulled, IT DOES INCLUDE A
SECOND wall above its lowermost hull that SERVES THE PURPOSE of keeping
water out of the cabin if the lower hull is compromised. And although
the second wall doesn't extend over all the hull, IT DOES extend over
the lowermost portion thereof, and it does extend for around 2/3rd. the
length of the boat. - If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck,
and serves the same purpose as a second hull......it doesn't make much
difference whether you call it a double hull or not.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

They're a piece of junk compared to other boats in the same
price range. Nothing they could have done would improve
them enough to justify buying one.

Have a nice day Jonathan.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

We're just trying to save others from the same fate that has befallen you.

Frankly, the mac is not a bad boat if you stay in a calm lake. It's pretty
expensive, and it depreciates faster than any other boat made, but its does have
some unique qualities. But claiming that the real advantage is that you can
quickly get to "blue water" is just plain stupid.


In my case, and in this area, that is one of the main advantages of the
boat to me. I intend to take it out for coastal cruising in blue water
in moderate conditions, with reefed sails. - Sailing in blue water is
one of the things I enjoy in sailing, and the boat was desinged as a
coastal cruiser.

Jim




"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

I'm still here because it's clear that the ng needs some balance and
fresh air and differing viewpoints on some issues. And also because
some Mac owners have come on the group and been intimidated and driven
off, and because I frankly don't like your attitude.

What HASN'T been explained is why you and your buddies are so very
concerned and stressed out about my remarks that you can't simply press
the "down button" and move on to another topic. Why do you want to
continue wasting time in this discussion if you REALLY think my comments
are totally insignificant and absurd and without merit? It should be
clear to you by now that you aren't going to drive me away. - So what's
keeping you in this discussion? Why can't you just leave it alone?

Jim



Scott Vernon wrote:


Yup.


"Jim Cate" wrote



As long as I keep posting the same crap over and over and over and over

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over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and again, I'll look like a fool.

Jim MacGregor

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

John Cairns wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

I'm still here because it's clear that the ng needs some balance and
fresh air and differing viewpoints on some issues. And also because
some Mac owners have come on the group and been intimidated and driven
off, and because I frankly don't like your attitude.

What HASN'T been explained is why you and your buddies are so very
concerned and stressed out about my remarks that you can't simply press
the "down button" and move on to another topic. Why do you want to
continue wasting time in this discussion if you REALLY think my comments
are totally insignificant and absurd and without merit? It should be
clear to you by now that you aren't going to drive me away. - So what's
keeping you in this discussion? Why can't you just leave it alone?

Jim


You can't seriously believe this crap you've been posting, can you? You're
basically posting, verbatim, what you've been reading in the mac sales
literature. I can offer you one unbiased review of the mac, culled from
"Practical Sailor", which accepts no advertising and can't possibly be
accused of harboring biases when it comes to sailboat evaluations. It's
free.
http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/boatreview2.html
Very interesting that they didn't bother to ACTUALLY SAIL THE THING. Also
very interesting that this was one of the 2 reviews that they're offering
free of charge. A public service announcement, perhaps? You'll note, even
the man himself doesn't claim that this is an "offshore" boat.





John, from reading the Practical Sailor article in its entirety, it's
actually quite favorable. (Incidentally, I'm a subscriber to PC, and
have read selected articles from it for many years. You seem to think I
had never heard of it.) Interesting that you cited this rather favorable
report on the (old) Mac 26 as a fatal hatchet job. I'm wondering if
you actually read the entire article.

Your suggestion that they are publishing this article as a "warning" to
inexperienced sailors is totally out of it, John. - They CONCLUDE the
article with a very favorable comment by a Mac owner, and the THEME of
the entire article is that the (previous) Mac 26 has lots of things
going for it provided one understands its limitations and doesn't plan
on using it to make long ocean crossings. (There is one quote from an
owner in San Francisco, not from "the man," that he wouldn't take the
boat out to blue water. - This isolated statement from one owner doesn't
mean much, of course. It may merely mean that that particular owner
hasn't learned how to sail well.) - Your statement inferring, from the
fact that they didn't sail the boat indicates that they "would have
reported that it sails poorly" is total bull ****. - Nothing in the
article suggests that they were going to trash its sailing performances.
(You think they deliberately selected a day with no wind so that they
wouldn't have to report on it's sailing characteristics??) In fact, they
quote from several owners who are obviously satisfied with the boat.


This article, relating to the 26X model some 7-8 years ago, notes a
number of improvements MacGregor incorporated in the 26X. I'm talking
about the new 26M, which includes improvements made from their
experience over the past eight years. - Here's the conclusion of the
article:

As for its seaworthiness, Roger MacGregor said, “The 26 was designed for
typical small cruising boat use—inland waters and limited coastal
sailing. It is too small to be a long-distance passagemaker. It wont
hold enough gear and supplies, and the long-term, day-after-day motion
of a small, light sailboat can be tough on the crew.

(John, If you read the article carefully you will note that Roger was
saying that the boat wasn't designed as a long-distance passagemaker. it
would be uncomfortable, and wouldn't hold the needed supplies. Duhh!
That's rather obvious, but it doesn't mean that it can't be used as a
coastal cruiser (using good sense and restricting it to reasonable
weather conditions, for limited use.) As discussed in the PC report,
the boats are sailed routinely in San Francisco bay, rather choppy and
high-wind area, as discussed in the article, and sail out to Catalina
island routinely.

As stated,
“There are thousands of these boats out there, and many have been caught
in, AND SURVIVED, SOME REALLY EXTREME WEATHER CONDITIONS, on BOTH lakes
AND OCEANS. Like most small cruising sailboats, the 26 can handle high
winds and nasty seas, but risk and discomfort levels increase
dramatically in severe weather. To maximize fun and safety, most of our
owners wisely keep a watchful eye on the weather and try to avoid severe
conditions.”

Conclusion
There's no question MacGregor is building an inexpensive product that
sells for $4,000-$6,000 LESS THAN ITS PRIMARY COMPETITORS. The list
price for boat, sails and trailer is $14,995 FOB the factory. Genoa and
gear, roller furling, cruising spinnaker, vang, mast raising system,
stove, cushions and transportation jump the price to $17,000; add
$5,000-$7,000 for engine and electronics.

[According to PC] THEY ALSO ENJOY RELATIVELY HIGH RESALE. Two-year-old
boats on the market are selling for 85%-90% of their original prices.

The owner of a recent model sums it up well, “She is fast enough to be
pleasurable, forgiving enough that I can be stupid, balanced enough that
I can be lazy.”

The two-year warranty covers all parts manufactured by MacGregor.

Contact- MacGregor Yacht Corp., 1631 Placentia, Costa Mesa, CA, 92627;
949/642-6830.


No one will
drive you away, but at some point you'll get plonked by just about everyone
here. And one last thing, if you really think your comments are "balanced"
and "fresh air", why do YOU keep trying to justify them?

Obviously, it's because my arguments are being ignored and aren't being
responded to, and because I enjoy providing some balance and new inputs
to otherwise biased discussions such as this. (And because I like to
see people like you squirming and stressed out.) But I have read the
previous discussions, and the reactions don't surprise me. Frankly, my
experience is that it takes several months of a discussion such as this
before people like you finally realize that your aren't going to be able
to run over me, or run away from me, and that you can't intimidate or
smoke-screen your way out of responding to my points. - -

It's actually amazing to me that you thought you cite that PC report as
a great triumph for those bashing the Mac 26, and then totally twist the
meaning and conclusions of the article. (Did you think we wouldn't read
it?) - According to you, the fact that PC didn't sail the boat and
didn't report on its handling was because they knew it would sail
poorly?? And didn't want to offend anyone?? In other words, according to
your interpretation, they intentionally selected a day without wind so
that they wouldn't have to sail the boat, and so they wouldn't have to
report on it?? Tell me, John, do you think Roger was paying them off so
that they wouldn't bash his boats?? (But no, you also told us that you
think PS is completely neutral because of their no-advertising policy.)
What are you saying, John? You are something else.



After all, you
asked for the input from us, we didn't come looking for YOU. And, of course,
I've never actually sailed one, but I've sailed by them many times in my 28
ft. keelboat, I should say, I've passed them many times in my 28 ft.
keelboat, more often than not they didn't appear to be moving.

Actually, you might be able to sail by my new 26M also, provided I
wasn't planing under sail. But as the PC article concludes, the
(previous) 26X sailed fast enough to be pleasurable. That's one thing
I'm looking for, although I intend to make several mods, such as three
reefing points and roller furling, to enhance the sailing characteristics.


I will also
admit, because I've seen it also, that they can definitely motor a lot
faster than I can sail, but if I was REALLY interested in powerboating I'd
own a powerboat and wouldn't be posting ANY of this here.

While I'm primarily interested in sailing, particularly in blue water, I
don't have an objection to motoring also. I particularly don't have an
objection to motoring to a desired destination prior to sailing,
fishing, picnicking, swimming with the grandkids, scuba diving, etc., in
order to have more time at the desired destination, get back more
quickly, and maintain a more convenient and less stressful schedule.
John Cairns

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Bullsh*t. You need meds.


Have a nice day Johathan.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Scotty,
Havne't you had your dinner yet? I was thinking it was time for the
cholesterol induced heart attack...

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jim, you're turning into an outright liar now. Its been pointed out to you that
the "second wall" only covers a portion of the below water surface, probably
less than half, and this does not include the vulnerable chines. Frankly, many
boats have integral tanks of some sort - unless they cover most of the surface
they do not provide the safety factor you're claiming.

BTW, if your ballast tank is punctured, the water would partially drain, leaving
the boat dangerously unstable. Since far more people drown from falling off
capsized boats than from sinking boats (by a huge margin, like 30 to 1), its not
clear you can call this a safety factor at all.



"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Scott, whether or not you call it double hulled, IT DOES INCLUDE A
SECOND wall above its lowermost hull that SERVES THE PURPOSE of keeping
water out of the cabin if the lower hull is compromised. And although
the second wall doesn't extend over all the hull, IT DOES extend over
the lowermost portion thereof, and it does extend for around 2/3rd. the
length of the boat. - If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck,
and serves the same purpose as a second hull......it doesn't make much
difference whether you call it a double hull or not.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Scott Vernon wrote:

Some ''blue water'' sailing in a Mac26XM would do.


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


katysails wrote:

Jim claimed:
I'm not afraid to die.

Prove it.

What would you suggest?


I'll post some pictures later this year.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

John Cairns wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Tadpole,

Thanks for your heads-up. Actually, I knew what I was getting into when
I decided to defend the Macs on this ng, since this group has been
bashing them for a number of years.

Jim


You need to try a google search, we don't spend our time bashing macs, we
try to limit our discussion to sailing and sailboats, which naturally would
exclude macs. Occasionally, someone comes a trolling, lauding the merits of
macs, we educate them.

Correction. You brainwash them, and drive them off.



We weren't talking about macs until you showed up, we
won't be talking about them after you leave. And one last thing, if you
thought your mac was as good a boat as you claim it is, you wouldn't feel
the need to convince us, remembering, we didn't ask you for your opinion on
the subject, you asked for ours.
John Cairns


Remember that I posted notes discussing several boats other than the
Mac, but they were of far less interest to the group. It's true that I
introduced this subject. (It's also true that no one has to read or
contribute to it.) But with over 600 notes posted under this topic
alone, not including the other Mac-related discussions, its obvious that
some on the ng are interested in it. And it's obvioiusly getting under
their skin. Being exposed to new truth that goes against tradition, and
questions what was considered sacred dogma can be painful, but its
ultimately good for the soul.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

jimbo, you are full of ****.


"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Scott Vernon wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote

are you under the impression that a mac26 is double hulled?

.


Yes it is.


NO, it's NOT


Scott, whether or not you call it double hulled, IT DOES INCLUDE A
SECOND wall above its lowermost hull that SERVES THE PURPOSE of keeping
water out of the cabin if the lower hull is compromised. And although
the second wall doesn't extend over all the hull, IT DOES extend over
the lowermost portion thereof, and it does extend for around 2/3rd. the
length of the boat. - If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck,
and serves the same purpose as a second hull......it doesn't make much
difference whether you call it a double hull or not.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

We started at 1030, still going strong, taking a break while waiting for the
pies to cool off.

Burp!
Scotty

"katysails" wrote in message
...
Scotty,
Havne't you had your dinner yet? I was thinking it was time for the
cholesterol induced heart attack...

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message
...
the Mac is a cheap piece of crap that doesn't sail worth a damn. How's
that?

How can you be so certain?



Regards

Donal
--

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

- its doesn't have

a double hull either. The portion of the hull the is protected by the

ballast

tank is about a third of the underwater surface - and its the part least

likely

to be damaged in a collision.

The water ballast chamber extends along the lowermost part of the hull
rearwardly from the bow for around 2/3rds of the length of the boat.


But is only extends one third of the width. It is more likely that you will hit
a floating obstruction on the side.




Because of its light weight, I don't think that the Mac is likely to
come apart striking something head on under sail. (Momentum and kinetic
energy are proportional to the square of the velocity, which is thus the
more significant factor.) On the other hand, if the Mac is under
power, planing at around 15 knots, for example, I can see a possible
hazard if the boat strikes floating depris, such a partially submerged
log, or some other non-visible hazard. In that event, it seems likely
that the portion of the boat that would get the major impact would be
the lower or center portion of the V-shaped hull. Below is a crude
pictorial representation:




deck
x
x x
x x x x x
x x
x x
x
water inner liner i x
~~~~~~~~~ x i i i x~~~~~~~
surface i o
~ o o o o o o o o oo ~ LLLLL
^ outer hull LLLLL
LLLLL
^^^
(partially
submerged log)


The drawing is not accurate or true to scale, and the boat would
probably be on an incline while planing, such that the lowermost,
longitudinally extending, center "edge portion" of the V bottom
was cutting through the water, and was therefore exposed to
submerged objects on the surface or just below the surface. But it
seems that under such circumstances, the lower hull
could strike the submerged object but not the inner liner,
which is higher in the boat than the lower hull. Also,
under these circumstances, it's likely that the log would be impacted by
only the lowermost, center portion of the keel (where the ballast tank
extends) but not the port and starbord portions of the V-shaped hull,
which are higher than the center of the V bottom. Of course, other
circumstances could arise in which the lower hull might be damaged

In any event, the inner liner is a safety factor, though probably not as
important one as the foam flotation that keeps the entire boat afloat in
the event water enters the cockpit.

Of course, I don't think these outcomes are likely if the limits of the
boat are respected. Of greater importance is a conservative skipper who
keeps the boat out of trouble in the first place, if at all possible,
and who is equipted and thoroghly trained for heavy weather conditions
and man-overboard, etc.







Thus, your inference that only around a third of the hull is protected
by the ballast tank is actually irrelevant,


Only to a non-boater with no experiance.


since if the boat runs over
an obstruction, the lowermost portions of the hull are the part that is
most likely to hit the obstruction and become punctured.


In a boat that only draws one foot it would take a complete idiot to hit a rock
dead on at high speed. Is that what you're claiming, Jim? That this design
feature is only there to protect the complete idiot? Far more likely is a
glancing blow to a floating object.


Obviously, the
boat doesn't have a complete second hull that extends throughout the
entire hull. (Does your boat?)


Actually, my boat has two complete hulls, running the entire length.

And which boat is that?

....


the

engine certainly wasted. BTW, they never actually say that there is enough

foam

to float the boat if the engine is attached, do they? Do you think they
destroyed a $8000 engine just to take that picture?

My engine weighs around 200 lbs., so I doubt that it is going to pull
the boat to the bottom. The picture of the boat afloat after they cut a
hole through the hull doesn't show the motor (so its not clear whether
they removed it or not), but it does indicate that, with five men aboard
the boat, the boat has sunk about a foot or so from its normal position.


Look again, Jim, its down to the rail on both sides. Given the very high
freeboard, that's closer to two feet below her lines. The question is, how
much foam floatation is left above the water?

Another question is, would four of your crew be standing on top of the
cabin in such conditions? If they remained partially submerged within
the cockpit or the top of the (open) cabin, the boat would be floating
much higher.

That tells you how close it is to
sinking. That picture is taken at the dock - in almost any sea conditions the
deck would be awash amd the boat would flip.


The new model (the 26M) has 300 pounds of permanent ballast. It would
tend to keep the boat upright.


Clearly, positive floatation is a advantage, but its not clear a flooded mac is
a better platform than a liferaft. On the other hand, the time may come when
you decided that unsinkable is a disadvantage.

Toute et possible. (Anything is possible.) But a boat that would stay
afloat, even if it didn't ride well,
far safer than a keel boat in which the heavy keel tends to QUICKLY pull
the boat to the bottom in the event substantial water enters the cabin,
from any cause. On a small boat, you aren't going to have much room for
a fully equiped life boat, and the heavier ones are not easy to launch
in high winds, according to Reese Paulley, who has made a number of
crossings.




would be far


In other words, with five adult passengers, the boat isn't anywhere near
sinking. 200 lbs of motor not make that much difference, and there is
plenty of capacity for more people, particularly if they didn't try to
stand on top of the cabin.

And, if you have any damage to the ballast tank, it could lose water and the
partially filled tank becomes dangerously unstable. This is not so bad if
you're on a lake where the mac belongs, but offshore this becomes

treacherous.

Actually, the new 26M model has a combination of both water ballast and
permanent ballast. The permanent ballast provides stability for the
boat when the water ballast isn't being used.


Not enough stability, given the stern warnings about aperating without ballast.



So the question is, would you prefer a boat with a solid hull that can

withstand

a beating without being compromised, or one that is likely to be compromised

by

a minor collision?

I would prefer a car with seat belts and air bags, and I would prefer a
boat with foam flotation. I would rather have a boat that would survive
even under critical emergency situations in which the hull was
compromised rather than one that would survive a minor collision but not
a major or critical one, in which case the keel would quickly pull the
boat to the bottom.


I would prefer a good sailboat that provides these advantages. In fact, I have
one. The mac is a poor powerboat, and a worse sailboat.

Have you sailed, or motored, the Mac 26M? No?

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Ganz wrote:

Bullsh*t. You need meds.


Have a nice day Johathan.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

It's nice that you admit you're a fool. Good show.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Ganz wrote:

You would really be a fool to even attempt to sail
your Mac in 30 kts. To even suggest it implies that
you know nothing about sailing.


Sure thing Johathan. But if I'm lost at sea, at least you won't have to
waste more of your time reading my notes on asa.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Feel free to keep replying to all my posts. YOU WIN.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Ganz wrote:

They're a piece of junk compared to other boats in the same
price range. Nothing they could have done would improve
them enough to justify buying one.

Have a nice day Jonathan.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

katysails wrote:

Jim claims: Folks, with a 50 hp motor, the boat will sink with a full load,
and

with the water ballast


That's very nice if planing with a 50 hp engine is what you want to do. I'm
sure the guys at alt. motoboater. would be very happy for you.

Katy, that particular note was a response to Jeff's comments concerning
the speed of the boat under power. If I'm posting a response to a note
regarding the boat's performance under power, logically, I am going to
talk about the boat's performance under power. - That doesn't mean i'm
into power boats over sail. As has been discussed ad nauseum, the
ability to motor out out to a desired sailing, fishing, diving, or
swimming area quickly, and to return quickly at the end of the cruise,
is an advantage in that it permits you to spend more time sailing,
fishing, diving, or swimming, etc. - Whatever floats your boat. - So, it
is an advantage, even if you aren't into powerboats.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jim said: it
is an advantage, even if you aren't into powerboats.

Only for those with gearhead mentalities...

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Folks, with a 50 hp motor, the boat will plane with a full load, and
with the water ballast. As to exactly how fast it can plane with two
people, three people, four people, five people, let me suggest that, in
any event, it's going to go substantially faster than most displacement
boats. It can also plane faster without the water ballast, and the new
26M includes 300 pounds of permenant ballast, in addition to the water
ballast, for added stability in that condition. Obviously, it would be
foolhardy to permit multiple passengers to ride on top of the cabin and
foredeck in the Mac, or any small boat, under those conditions.


What? Are you saying its unsafe to sit forward in a normal power boat? What
about all of those "bowriders" outs there?

The Mac is clearly unsafe without its water ballast. The admonishments include:
no more than 4 people. Keep crew aft, low and centered. The kids can't even
stay in the forward bunk! They actually tell you not to use the forward bunks
when underway! They say it is unsafe in seas higher than one foot! So much
for coming in from offshore. You can't stand on the deck because someone might
grab the mast to hold on! What? They're afraid someone might pull the boat
over trying to hold on??? No, this is not typical of a 26 foot sailboat, nor
is it typical of a 26 foot powerboat.

Jeff, have you had many dealings with corporate attorneys? Or tort
lawyers? If you had, you would recognize that these warnings, if taken
literally, are something like the warnings posted in our health center
warning us to be sure to wear our seat belt when using the Nautilus
weight training equipment. Or, like the long list of warnings you get
when you purchase any electrical appliance, audio equipment, etc.
Actually, the new 26M has 300 pounds of additional permanent ballast, in
addition to the water ballast, for providing added stability when
motoring without the water ballast. (The previous model, the 26X, didn't
have this feature, yet I haven't heard of hundreds of Mac 26X owners
being lost at sea because they didn't stay below deck when motoring the
boat without the ballast. In essence, when under power without the water
ballast, the boat is a small, lightweight power boat, and you have to
take reasonable precautions to keep the com low. (On the other hand, if
you can provide statistics regarding hundreds of Mac sailors being lost
at sea because they didn't stay in the cabin when motoring without the
water ballast, I would like to see those statistics.)

Of course, if I were sailing or motoring with several guests, or with
children (our grandkids), I would certainly make sure that they didn't
head out to the foredeck when the boat was motoring without the water
ballast. Also, if I was going to go offshore, I would want to make sure
that the water ballast was filled. Uimately, however, this is a "lawyer
thing." Remember, the boat is manufactured in California.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Scott Vernon wrote:

progress......his first admission to his lies.

Nope. My comment is that, whether or not you call it a "double hull"
if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, you can probably call it
a duck. In this case, the inner liner acts like a double hull (IN THE
LOWER PORTION OF THE HULL THAT IS LIKELY TO SUFFER DAMAGE FROM IMPACT
WITH SUBMERGED OBJECTS), and whether or not you call it a double hull,
it provides the same advantages.

Additionally, the boat has positive flotation such that, even if the
hull is compromised, the boat stays afloat. - Scotty, does your boat
stay afloat if the hull is penetrated? Or does the keel quickly pull the
boat to the bottom?????????

Jim

"Jim Cate" wrote

Obviously the Mac don't have a complete double hull

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Where's your evidence that this is a problem for most Mac owners,
Scotty? I'd like to see a report regarding the extent of this problem,
and an estimate of the additional expenses Mac owners can expect. Is it
going to cost $5,000 per year? $2,000 per year? $1,000 per year? Or is
it more like $100 per year, on average? Please provide addresses and
links to any sources you cite.

Jim



Scott Vernon wrote:

Funny, he never mentioned the problem of blisters, from the inside of the
ballast tank, that Macgregors are infamous for.

SV

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:


Its funny, the drawing on the web site don't show this to be "double

hulled".

The water ballast is on the center line, not around the chine - it

would be

easy

to penetrate the hull with a glancing blow to a rock.

Obviously the Mac don't have a complete double hull extending throughout
the hull and chines. (Does your boat?)

My boat has two complete hulls, running the full length.



But it does have what amounts to
a double hull extending along its lowermost section for most of the
length of the hull.

All this means is that there are some situations where there is some extra
protection. It does not mean you have the full protection that is implied

by

"double hull." This is not a real "safety feature," it is just a

marketing

claim.

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

You're not dealing with reality here. Sure winds can be higher
than predicted. That has nothing to do with being prepared
for and expect conditions different from what is "predicted."
By definition, it's only a guess.

So what you're saying is that because light winds are predicted,
you don't bring foul weather gear and a sail change. You just
go with the prediction. Sounds stupid to me.

Nope. Not at all. I would want to be prepared for any potential
circumstance, but I would plan on motoring and/or sailing back to port
if conditions worsened unexpectantly. If that was not possible, I think
the Macgregor, with reefed or no sails, and storm anchor, could survive
with the best of them. Not comfortably, but it would survive.

By the way, Johathan, are you going to buy one of the heavy-weather
Satori's?



"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Ganz wrote:


That's a stupid question. Unexpected winds??? What kind of
sailor would not expect conditions such as this? A stupid or
inexperienced one.

Is there anyone on this ng with extensive sailing experience who hasn't
run into winds higher than were predicted, and higher than he or she
expected? In our area, forecasts can suggest good sailing conditions
with only a slight chance of showers, but storms and severe winds can
form quite quickly.


Ummm... you just contradicted yourself. Sorry to have to point it out.


Get a grip on yourself Johnathan. - Any serious sailor should expect and
be prepared for the possibility that unexpected weather conditions may
occur.


If you were sailing a decent boat, it would survive just about
any high winds that come by. A perfect example is the Satori
from Perfect Storm fame (not the f*cking movie).



It was not an expensive boat compared to other ocean going
sailboats. The fact is that the Mac would not survive anything
approaching the kind of weather one should be prepared to
find on the ocean.


The Satori was a heavy boat specifically built to survive severe heavy
weather conditions miles offshore. It had an overbuilt hull, rigging,
keel, etc., etc. I doubt that most sailors on this ng would enjoy
sailing such a boat even if they could afford the substantial additional
costs.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

Jim, you're turning into an outright liar now. Its been pointed out to you that
the "second wall" only covers a portion of the below water surface, probably
less than half, and this does not include the vulnerable chines. Frankly, many
boats have integral tanks of some sort - unless they cover most of the surface
they do not provide the safety factor you're claiming.

As discussed in detail above, the water ballast extend for some2/3rds of
the length of the vessel and it protects the most vulnerable (lowermost.
central) portion fo the hull. Although you may not want to call the
extra wall a "double hull," it actually serves the same purpose. - If it
walks like a duck, and talks like a ducke....why not call it a duck.


BTW, if your ballast tank is punctured, the water would partially drain,

(Unless the boat turtled or pitch polled and then remained in an
inverted position (despite the safety factors such as flotaion in the
mast itself, and the permanent ballast in the hull), why do you think
the water in the ballast tank would drain, since it is positioned below
the cg of the boat?
leaving
the boat dangerously unstable.

You don't seem to get it. - Would you prefer to be on a displacement
boat with no floatation whatsoever, in which the keel would pull the
boat to the bottom QUICKLY if the cabin were filled with water?


Since far more people drown from falling off
capsized boats than from sinking boats (by a huge margin, like 30 to 1),

Jeff, where did you get those statistics ("like, 30 to 1"). PLEASE
PROVIDE LISTINGS OF YOUR SOURCES AND CITES TO ANY WEBSITES YOU ARE
CITING. ALSO, PLEASE INCLUDE THE VOLUME, DATE, PAGE NUMBERS, ETC., OF
ANY ARTICLES OR BOOKS YOU ARE CITING.


its not
clear you can call this a safety factor at all.



"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Scott, whether or not you call it double hulled, IT DOES INCLUDE A
SECOND wall above its lowermost hull that SERVES THE PURPOSE of keeping
water out of the cabin if the lower hull is compromised. And although
the second wall doesn't extend over all the hull, IT DOES extend over
the lowermost portion thereof, and it does extend for around 2/3rd. the
length of the boat. - If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck,
and serves the same purpose as a second hull......it doesn't make much
difference whether you call it a double hull or not.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

I think you're lying. Prove you aren't.

How would you suggest that I "prove" that I ordered the boat on March 25?

- Get a grip on yourself Jonathan. - Consider how stupid and irrational
you will be perceived from these childish remarks.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

No. You let it go. You're the newbie fool. You're the one
making an even bigger fool out of himself with each post.
I'll be here long after you're gone and your piece of junk is
in the trash heap.


Actually, I've been posting notes to this ng since 1997, and I've been
sailing for some 30 years. You ought to listen to us older, experienced
sailors, Johanthan.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

katysails wrote:

Jim opined: many on this ng
have become opinionated,

Become???? We came this way...we're original opinionates....

Agreed.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Jonathan Ganz wrote:

There aren't many owners who would contemplate opening
themselves up to ridicule. Even they are smarter than you.

In other words, whether or not I'm telling the truth or devending
posting a valid thesis, most owners on this ng wouldn't want to risk
alientating the others by agreeing with me. Is this the logical
conclusion from your comments, Johathan? Most contributor to this ng
would prefer to "go along to get along"?

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

felton wrote:

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 21:01:44 -0500, Jim Cate wrote:



Wally wrote:


Jim Cate wrote:



This isn't what happened at all. I posted my questions several times
on this an on the cruising ng and scanned the reponses for over a
month hoping to get some factual or substantive information regarding
the 26M. It was only after weeks of "Mac bashings" ...


What, you came into a sailing newsgroup to enquire about about a boat you
knew little about, it's gets slagged off something rotten for a month...

...and then you go and *buy* one?

Nobody is that stupid.


You have it bass-ass backwards, Wally. I came onto this newsgroups
hoping to get some substantive, factual information. Instead, I found
out that most of the Mac-bashers have never sailed the current Mac 26,
and don't know what the hell they are talking about, yet despite this,
don't hesitate to pontificate and sneer and try to intimidate anyone who
likes the boat. This reveals to me that the Mac-bashers are either: (1)
stupid (2) incapable of rational thought, or (3) liar. In any event, it
put my mind at ease with respect to what I thought might be some
problems with the Mac, other than its inherent limitations that I
already knew. Thus, my decision was simplified, and I proceeded to
place my order. Because they are substantially sold out for the rest of
the summer, I'll be one of the fortunate few who will be able to take
delivery of this spectacular and innovated boat this season.

Jim



Do you really believe that the "new" Mac 26 is some night and day
different boat than the "old" Mac 26? P.T. Barnum was right.

Have you taken the time to check out the changes made in the 26M,
Felton? Do you know anything about the hull design, the changes in the
mast, the sails, etc. No? Then you're the one who doesn't know what the
hell he is talking about, not me.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

It only covers 1/3 of the width, and its the least likely part of the hull to
hit something. Hitting bottom is no going to sink the boat, not when it only
draw a foot. Hitting a floating object while you're in deep water is the real
risk. That's why having an extra layer along the waterline is meaningless. Of
course, mac are not marketed to people that understand the real risks - that's
why their marketing department makes up nonsense like this.

Claiming over and over that its a "double hull" just makes you sound like an
idiot.



"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...


Jeff Morris wrote:

Jim, you're turning into an outright liar now. Its been pointed out to you
that
the "second wall" only covers a portion of the below water surface, probably
less than half, and this does not include the vulnerable chines. Frankly,
many
boats have integral tanks of some sort - unless they cover most of the
surface
they do not provide the safety factor you're claiming.

As discussed in detail above, the water ballast extend for some2/3rds of
the length of the vessel and it protects the most vulnerable (lowermost.
central) portion fo the hull. Although you may not want to call the
extra wall a "double hull," it actually serves the same purpose. - If it
walks like a duck, and talks like a ducke....why not call it a duck.


BTW, if your ballast tank is punctured, the water would partially drain,

(Unless the boat turtled or pitch polled and then remained in an
inverted position (despite the safety factors such as flotaion in the
mast itself, and the permanent ballast in the hull), why do you think
the water in the ballast tank would drain, since it is positioned below
the cg of the boat?
leaving
the boat dangerously unstable.

You don't seem to get it. - Would you prefer to be on a displacement
boat with no floatation whatsoever, in which the keel would pull the
boat to the bottom QUICKLY if the cabin were filled with water?


Since far more people drown from falling off
capsized boats than from sinking boats (by a huge margin, like 30 to 1),

Jeff, where did you get those statistics ("like, 30 to 1"). PLEASE
PROVIDE LISTINGS OF YOUR SOURCES AND CITES TO ANY WEBSITES YOU ARE
CITING. ALSO, PLEASE INCLUDE THE VOLUME, DATE, PAGE NUMBERS, ETC., OF
ANY ARTICLES OR BOOKS YOU ARE CITING.


its not
clear you can call this a safety factor at all.



"Jim Cate" wrote in message
...

Scott, whether or not you call it double hulled, IT DOES INCLUDE A
SECOND wall above its lowermost hull that SERVES THE PURPOSE of keeping
water out of the cabin if the lower hull is compromised. And although
the second wall doesn't extend over all the hull, IT DOES extend over
the lowermost portion thereof, and it does extend for around 2/3rd. the
length of the boat. - If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck,
and serves the same purpose as a second hull......it doesn't make much
difference whether you call it a double hull or not.

Jim

MacGregor 26M - Valiant 40
 

Wally wrote:

Jim Cate wrote:


You have it bass-ass backwards, Wally.


In all honesty, and with due respect, I think you have.



I came onto this newsgroups
hoping to get some substantive, factual information.


Would I be correct in assuming that you were looking for said information to
aid you in your purchasing decision?



Instead, I found
out that most of the Mac-bashers have never sailed the current Mac 26,
and don't know what the hell they are talking about, yet despite this,
don't hesitate to pontificate and sneer and try to intimidate anyone
who likes the boat. This reveals to me that the Mac-bashers are
either: (1) stupid (2) incapable of rational thought, or (3) liar.


Frankly, I think "intimidate" is a bit strong. This *is* a newsgroup, after
all. If you know anything about usenet, you'll know that conversation is
often robust to say the least.



In any event, it put my mind at ease with respect to what I thought
might be some problems with the Mac, other than its inherent
limitations that I already knew. Thus, my decision was simplified,
and I proceeded to place my order.


What probelms in partcular were you concerned about, and how could those
concerns be put at ease when all you've had is negative comments?



... Because they are substantially
sold out for the rest of the summer, I'll be one of the fortunate few
who will be able to take delivery of this spectacular and innovated
boat this season.


I was hoping to get some reports from contributors who had actually
sailed the 26M (not the previous models), or who had spoken with
experienced sailors who had sailed the boat. No one on this ng had
sailed the boat, and few had spoken with anyone who had. If someone on
the ng had actually sailed the boat, his or her report regarding how the
boat handled under varying conditions would have been helpful.

Regarding your question about what is spectacular and innovative about
the boat, I have previously discussed the advantages and improvements at
length. If I'm correct, the Mac 26 is the most popular cruising sailboat
on the market, by far. Incremental improvements have been made in the
last two models, and further improvements are incorporated in the new
26M. Advantages of the 26 water ballast sailboat in general include the
fact that the boat addresses the "time factor." As previously discussed
several times, if one owns a fine, 36-foot displacement boat that is
capable of blue water crossings, etc., but which one doesn't have TIME
to sail, then the advantages of the boat don't serve you very well. (Of
course, you can always boast that your boat COULD SAIL ANYWHERE YOU
WANTED TO (if you had time). In the case of the Mac, the ability to
motor out to a desired sailing or fishing or swimming area at 15 knots,
or, alternatively, the ability to motor the boat down to another sailing
are at 65 mph, can change the "COULD SAIL" to a "DID SAIL". In other
words, unless one is retired or has lots of leisure time, the ability to
get to where you want to go, using the power and/or trailoring
capabilities of the Mac 26, can permit you to actually sail in a desired
area, not just talk about it.

With respect to what changes have been incorporated in the 26M, these
have also been discussed several times in previous notes. They include
the addition of permanent ballast, for added safety when motoring or
sailing without the water ballast; the substantial changes to the hull,
which has a new deep V configuration for smoothing out the boat's
performance in heavy chop, the elimination of the pivotal keel, and the
200-gallon slot previously required to receive the pivotal keel (now
replaced by a more narrow, deep dagger board), additional fiber glass
and roving in the hull, etc.; substantially taller mast and rigging,
rotatable mast, etc., etc.

In essence, the 26M provides the advantages from the several previous
models of water ballast power sailboats, plus the advantages of "lessons
learned" over the past eight years of production.

Jim



What is spectacular and innovative about it?