Excellent post!
John Cairns
"Michael" wrote in message
...
My purpose in this was to elicit comments on the height of the stanchions
themselves, for those that use them. In some cases, primarily local area
racing boats they aren't installed. In others they are but mostly the
factory standard of 20". Doug, naturally, hit on the main point right
away.
IF you do use stanchions and lifelines 20" is just the perfect height to
trip over. Initially I had, and the same with this boat, custom
stanchions
installed at 30". With the Centaur I added two stanchions and bases as
well
on each side (and made sure they were wide base with good backing plates
and
base braces.) The Berwick, happily came with a sufficient number. In
the
wilder waters of the world, as compared to the gentle protected waters of
Long Island Sound for example, it's easy for the boat to lurch violently
at
the odd, unexpected moment. When transiting to the foredeck or back you
must always be prepared for that. It's more common than a fair
weather/water sailor might think. Borrowing some extra ideas from an
experienced circumnavigator I added two more options. Granted this may
seem like overkill but when one singlehands on blue water I doubt any
added
safety features are overkill. The first was to move the jacklines more
inboard. On the foredeck and on the cabin tops the jackline IS in the
center. The cabin section gives a better angle of support, both sections
force you to move more inboard, further away from the rail/lifelines and
one
can always hook in and move on the windward side with ease. The second is
an
optional feature which is a long piece of webbing, jackline style which
runs
between the stern and bow pulpit but raises at an angle to shoulder height
at the lower spreader. I rig this in rougher conditions and it acts as a
third lifeline but the advantage is if one is thrown outboard it catches
you
at or near the shoulder. Thus enhancing the 30" stanchion upper lifeline
which catches you above, not below the knee.

Again this is not a calm water or racing setup, unless of course it was
the
Sydney Hobart!

A third feature I'm going to add on this boat is an extra toe rail board
(2") or so along the stanchions but leaving a 2" opening for water to
egress. You'll see this on many production boats of the cruising variety
plus on Taliesyn. and of course some sort of netting to catch the basket
ball when I miss a shot.

(Sense of Humour check that last bit.)

Some may wonder why all of this? IF you sail in the extreme NE or NW
parts
of the country, in Canada, or in any similar places you won't be asking
that
question. But I'm reminded of entering the Columbia River, skirting a
tad
bit too close to the Peacock Shoals (never again thank you) and then going
up river. A lot of salmon fisherman were out including one who was in a
lake style skiff wearing some saggy shorts and a t-shirt (never mind any
floatation devices) and busy cutting away line from his prop while
drifting
into the freighter lane. He looked up and remarked. "What's all that for
...
You don't need all that." Two days later he became the 37th drowning
fatality for that year.

I don't think he's laughing at my penchant for 'overkill' anymore.

So to finish, finally, my reason for Lifelines II was to point out there's
more than one part to the system. And thanks Doug for introducing the
fallacy and dangers of 20" stanchions.

M.






"DSK" wrote in message
...


Michael wrote:

I'll start this one without a comment but with questions.

a. How tall (length of vertical piping) are the stanchions on your
boat?

On our little boat (19' LOA), they're 20" high. The perfect height for
tripping you up... but the idea is to give a solid handhold (which they
do)
not to enable carelessness.

I much prefer 30" stanchions with double lifelines. A bit harder to step
over
but they are much less likely to trip up the crew working on deck.

The tugboat has 26" bulwarks all around with a handrail above that fore
&
aft. It's nice for keeping dropped stuff, pets & small children, aboard.




b. Diameter of stanchions is?

1" which is IMHO minimum. The tapered stanchions look cool.

Another issue is how the stanchion bases are constructed, and how they
are
fastened. Sockets are bad. Welded base plates are bad unless lugged
(which
you can't tell without cutting it open). Lag screws are bad. Bolts
without
backing plates are bad. Bolts through cored fiberglass are bad. In
short,
there are a lot of bad ways to mount stanchions (and you'll see them all
on a
short dock walk) but not many good ways.

The little boat has an odd way of mounting the stanchions, they are
carried
down alongside the side of the raised deck and bolted though the
topsides.
Hunter did that detail right, they are very solid. I've seen some
European
boats that had their lifeline stanchions mounted in a similar way, but
it
takes either some tumblehome or a thick rub rail or they get banged
against
everything coming alongside.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Actually, it adds quite a bit, since him being an idiot is an integral part
of the discussion. Your post, however, adds nothing.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
What I am claiming, however, is that you're an idiot.


Jonathan, this is a pointless comment and it adds nothing to this topic.


RB

I'm sorry. I didn't realize you couldn't get into college.

wrote in message
...
On 20 Feb 2004 22:45:06 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:

What I am claiming, however, is that you're an idiot.


Jonathan, this is a pointless comment and it adds nothing to this topic.


Pointless was Jon's major in college.

BB

a non-sanctioned race, of course. between you and some boat that doesn't know
you are racing.

On the bay of course. Are you that stupid?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ah, just where is it that you race where lifelines are not REQUIRED?

No. I have a Cal 20 that I can race and have raced. It doesn't
come with lifelines, there's no need to add them for a couple of
reasons, and this has nothing to do with claims of universal
application.

What I am claiming, however, is that you're an idiot.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you have a 20 bay sailor you can't race (no lifelines) and you are
attempting
to claim THAT defines the universe?

sure.

From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 2/20/2004 1:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:


"Michael" wrote in message
...
I'll start this one without a comment but with questions.

a. How tall (length of vertical piping) are the stanchions on your
boat?

About 4 inches.

b. Diameter of stanchions is?

1-1/2" I believe

c. How many stanchions between the fore and aft pulpits ove what
distance(feet or meters I do both)?

Actually, it's a one-piece handrail.

d. How many lifelines are mounted?

zero

e. To refresh the memory give the boat name/model and length on
deck.

Cal 20, ummm... 20 ft.

Answer should like something like this (all in the feet/yard
system).

24/01/03/18/26 as an example.

35/24/34/18/old enough

That's all I need for now

M.

yes, of course.

Jaxie believes lifelines are required on all sailboats. I'll bet his
sailfish
has lifelines.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
On the bay of course. Are you that stupid?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ah, just where is it that you race where lifelines are not REQUIRED?

No. I have a Cal 20 that I can race and have raced. It doesn't
come with lifelines, there's no need to add them for a couple of
reasons, and this has nothing to do with claims of universal
application.

What I am claiming, however, is that you're an idiot.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you have a 20 bay sailor you can't race (no lifelines) and you are
attempting
to claim THAT defines the universe?

sure.

From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 2/20/2004 1:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:


"Michael" wrote in message
...
I'll start this one without a comment but with questions.

a. How tall (length of vertical piping) are the stanchions on your
boat?

About 4 inches.

b. Diameter of stanchions is?

1-1/2" I believe

c. How many stanchions between the fore and aft pulpits ove what
distance(feet or meters I do both)?

Actually, it's a one-piece handrail.

d. How many lifelines are mounted?

zero

e. To refresh the memory give the boat name/model and length on
deck.

Cal 20, ummm... 20 ft.

Answer should like something like this (all in the feet/yard
system).

24/01/03/18/26 as an example.

35/24/34/18/old enough

That's all I need for now

M.

mostly the
factory standard of 20". Doug, naturally, hit on the main point right away.

dougies sails (or rather did sail) a 19 foot boat on very protected waters.
20" is more than good enough. Offshore boats usually have two, not one,
lifelines, and the stanchions are higher.

yeah, it tells how to trip over 30" stanchions instead of 20" stanchions.
Excellent, racko-nos. excellent.

Excellent post!
John Cairns
"Michael" wrote in message
...
My purpose in this was to elicit comments on the height of the stanchions
themselves, for those that use them. In some cases, primarily local area
racing boats they aren't installed. In others they are but mostly the
factory standard of 20". Doug, naturally, hit on the main point right
away.
IF you do use stanchions and lifelines 20" is just the perfect height to
trip over. Initially I had, and the same with this boat, custom
stanchions
installed at 30". With the Centaur I added two stanchions and bases as
well
on each side (and made sure they were wide base with good backing plates
and
base braces.) The Berwick, happily came with a sufficient number. In
the
wilder waters of the world, as compared to the gentle protected waters of
Long Island Sound for example, it's easy for the boat to lurch violently
at
the odd, unexpected moment. When transiting to the foredeck or back you
must always be prepared for that. It's more common than a fair
weather/water sailor might think. Borrowing some extra ideas from an
experienced circumnavigator I added two more options. Granted this may
seem like overkill but when one singlehands on blue water I doubt any
added
safety features are overkill. The first was to move the jacklines more
inboard. On the foredeck and on the cabin tops the jackline IS in the
center. The cabin section gives a better angle of support, both sections
force you to move more inboard, further away from the rail/lifelines and
one
can always hook in and move on the windward side with ease. The second is
an
optional feature which is a long piece of webbing, jackline style which
runs
between the stern and bow pulpit but raises at an angle to shoulder height
at the lower spreader. I rig this in rougher conditions and it acts as a
third lifeline but the advantage is if one is thrown outboard it catches
you
at or near the shoulder. Thus enhancing the 30" stanchion upper lifeline
which catches you above, not below the knee.

Again this is not a calm water or racing setup, unless of course it was
the
Sydney Hobart!

A third feature I'm going to add on this boat is an extra toe rail board
(2") or so along the stanchions but leaving a 2" opening for water to
egress. You'll see this on many production boats of the cruising variety
plus on Taliesyn. and of course some sort of netting to catch the basket
ball when I miss a shot.

(Sense of Humour check that last bit.)

Some may wonder why all of this? IF you sail in the extreme NE or NW
parts
of the country, in Canada, or in any similar places you won't be asking
that
question. But I'm reminded of entering the Columbia River, skirting a
tad
bit too close to the Peacock Shoals (never again thank you) and then going
up river. A lot of salmon fisherman were out including one who was in a
lake style skiff wearing some saggy shorts and a t-shirt (never mind any
floatation devices) and busy cutting away line from his prop while
drifting
into the freighter lane. He looked up and remarked. "What's all that for
..
You don't need all that." Two days later he became the 37th drowning
fatality for that year.

I don't think he's laughing at my penchant for 'overkill' anymore.

So to finish, finally, my reason for Lifelines II was to point out there's
more than one part to the system. And thanks Doug for introducing the
fallacy and dangers of 20" stanchions.

M.






"DSK" wrote in message
...


Michael wrote:

I'll start this one without a comment but with questions.

a. How tall (length of vertical piping) are the stanchions on your
boat?

On our little boat (19' LOA), they're 20" high. The perfect height for
tripping you up... but the idea is to give a solid handhold (which they
do)
not to enable carelessness.

I much prefer 30" stanchions with double lifelines. A bit harder to step
over
but they are much less likely to trip up the crew working on deck.

The tugboat has 26" bulwarks all around with a handrail above that fore
&
aft. It's nice for keeping dropped stuff, pets & small children, aboard.




b. Diameter of stanchions is?

1" which is IMHO minimum. The tapered stanchions look cool.

Another issue is how the stanchion bases are constructed, and how they
are
fastened. Sockets are bad. Welded base plates are bad unless lugged
(which
you can't tell without cutting it open). Lag screws are bad. Bolts
without
backing plates are bad. Bolts through cored fiberglass are bad. In
short,
there are a lot of bad ways to mount stanchions (and you'll see them all
on a
short dock walk) but not many good ways.

The little boat has an odd way of mounting the stanchions, they are
carried
down alongside the side of the raised deck and bolted though the
topsides.
Hunter did that detail right, they are very solid. I've seen some
European
boats that had their lifeline stanchions mounted in a similar way, but
it
takes either some tumblehome or a thick rub rail or they get banged
against
everything coming alongside.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sure. Whatever. Time to take your meds..

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
a non-sanctioned race, of course. between you and some boat that doesn't
know
you are racing.

On the bay of course. Are you that stupid?

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ah, just where is it that you race where lifelines are not REQUIRED?

No. I have a Cal 20 that I can race and have raced. It doesn't
come with lifelines, there's no need to add them for a couple of
reasons, and this has nothing to do with claims of universal
application.

What I am claiming, however, is that you're an idiot.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
you have a 20 bay sailor you can't race (no lifelines) and you are
attempting
to claim THAT defines the universe?

sure.

From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 2/20/2004 1:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:


"Michael" wrote in message
...
I'll start this one without a comment but with questions.

a. How tall (length of vertical piping) are the stanchions on
your
boat?

About 4 inches.

b. Diameter of stanchions is?

1-1/2" I believe

c. How many stanchions between the fore and aft pulpits ove what
distance(feet or meters I do both)?

Actually, it's a one-piece handrail.

d. How many lifelines are mounted?

zero

e. To refresh the memory give the boat name/model and length on
deck.

Cal 20, ummm... 20 ft.

Answer should like something like this (all in the feet/yard
system).

24/01/03/18/26 as an example.

35/24/34/18/old enough

That's all I need for now

M.

Jaxie, this is a pointless comment and it adds nothing to this topic.

Suzy

(JAXAshby) wrote in message ...
you have a 20 bay sailor you can't race (no lifelines) and you are attempting
to claim THAT defines the universe?

sure.

From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 2/20/2004 1:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:


"Michael" wrote in message
...
I'll start this one without a comment but with questions.

a. How tall (length of vertical piping) are the stanchions on your boat?

About 4 inches.

b. Diameter of stanchions is?

1-1/2" I believe

c. How many stanchions between the fore and aft pulpits ove what
distance(feet or meters I do both)?

Actually, it's a one-piece handrail.

d. How many lifelines are mounted?

zero

e. To refresh the memory give the boat name/model and length on deck.

Cal 20, ummm... 20 ft.

Answer should like something like this (all in the feet/yard system).

24/01/03/18/26 as an example.

35/24/34/18/old enough

That's all I need for now

M.

Bill, this is a pointless comment and it adds nothing to this topic.

Suzy


wrote in message ...
On 20 Feb 2004 22:45:06 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:

What I am claiming, however, is that you're an idiot.


Jonathan, this is a pointless comment and it adds nothing to this topic.


Pointless was Jon's major in college.

BB