felton wrote:


I don't think it has been in production this long becuase it is "salty
looking".

No, but that helps.

I watch these things being built and shipped out all over
the world. These things are built and well thought out.

They have also evolved a bit in design over the years. But as an original concept,
the idea was to design a classic looking boat with the performance of a fin
keeler.... so if they have earned a great reputation for seaworthiness, then it only
proves that a fin keeler can be very seaworthy.


Perhaps it
is slower than it needs be because of the strenght of it's
construction?

Not at all. Usually very fast boats are built to be very strong also, because of the
great stresses involved in sailing fast.


Is that a bad thing for a "seaworthy boat"?

What, speed of strength of construction? Neither, I'd say

By
"scientifically trained sailors", who would that be in reference to?

Graduates of the JAXAshby Advanced School of Scientific Sounding Sailboat Gibberish.


JAXAshby wrote
Bob Perry would say different, but then Bob has publicly called me an asshole,

but Bob has also publicly stated that he has struggled with math all his life,
a statement on his part that I do not doubt.

Actually, I don't doubt either statement

Actually, I suspect that this is no more true than any other of Jax's claims, such
as having sex with various well known actresses or sailing around the Atlantic
looking for the Gulf Stream for a week.

..... Are you suggesting that yacht
design is ultimately a mathmatical exercise and the best slide rule
operator will design the best boat? That would be an interesting
theory to test.

It's already been tested. Ever since the origin of geometry, people have tried to
use math to design better (usually meaning faster) boats. While the use of large
computers has advanced the practice quite a bit lately, it seems that there is more
to it than pure abstract number crunching. As proven by a certain groups highly
advanced number crunched design that also crunched spars.....



I think Bob's success speaks for itself. The boat has been a success,
commercially and out on the water for over 30 years and is in the
Sailboat Hall of Fame. If "scientifically trained sailors" wish to
nitpick, then so be it.

My only nitpick would be that the canoe stern reduces reserve bouyancy, and makes it
awkward to mount hardware back there. Some people seem to think that the Valiant is
similar in more than superficial aesthetics to some kind of historic pilot cutter or
rescue vessel from the days of sail, but it is really a modern (1970s era) design.
In it's day it was not a crab-crusher, rather it was on the light end of the
displacement/length scale.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:11:05 -0500, DSK wrote:

felton wrote:


By
"scientifically trained sailors", who would that be in reference to?

Graduates of the JAXAshby Advanced School of Scientific Sounding Sailboat Gibberish.

Is there a correspondence course? Do they offer any electives in
diesel mechanics? I doubt I could get in...I struggle with math.

JAXAshby wrote
Bob Perry would say different, but then Bob has publicly called me an asshole,

but Bob has also publicly stated that he has struggled with math all his life,
a statement on his part that I do not doubt.

Actually, I don't doubt either statement

Actually, I suspect that this is no more true than any other of Jax's claims, such
as having sex with various well known actresses or sailing around the Atlantic
looking for the Gulf Stream for a week.

I am fairly certain that Bob called Jax an asshole in the old Cruising
World forum. Then again, I suspect that it wasn't the first or last
time Jax has been "misidentified" as an asshole, so I am not certain
what that has to do with the boat, or the designer in question



..... Are you suggesting that yacht
design is ultimately a mathmatical exercise and the best slide rule
operator will design the best boat? That would be an interesting
theory to test.

It's already been tested. Ever since the origin of geometry, people have tried to
use math to design better (usually meaning faster) boats. While the use of large
computers has advanced the practice quite a bit lately, it seems that there is more
to it than pure abstract number crunching. As proven by a certain groups highly
advanced number crunched design that also crunched spars.....



I think Bob's success speaks for itself. The boat has been a success,
commercially and out on the water for over 30 years and is in the
Sailboat Hall of Fame. If "scientifically trained sailors" wish to
nitpick, then so be it.

My only nitpick would be that the canoe stern reduces reserve bouyancy, and makes it
awkward to mount hardware back there. Some people seem to think that the Valiant is
similar in more than superficial aesthetics to some kind of historic pilot cutter or
rescue vessel from the days of sail, but it is really a modern (1970s era) design.
In it's day it was not a crab-crusher, rather it was on the light end of the
displacement/length scale.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


Well, I agree it is an "old" design. I have asked the Valiant folks if
they have considered that a newer design might be about due, but they
seem to feel that "if it aint broke, why fix it." Hard to argue with,
I suppose. While I have never been aboard a Passport, I suspect that
it might be a design that would have more appeal to me, particularly
the stern, as you mention. A large part of why I admire the Valiants,
though, is knowing the people who build them and seeing the way they
are put together. They are very well made, and that is something that
is every bit as important as the design.

felton writes:

I don't think

he continues with:

I watch

then makes this statement:

Perhaps it
is slower than it needs be because of the strenght of it's
construction?

yeah, that's it. certainly not because of a poor design.

Actually, I don't doubt either statement

oh, he made the statement, alright.

What does his math
aptitude have to do with anything?

you are ****ting us, right? Perry made that 19th century bull**** statement
about sailboats hp requirements going otta sight because of "climbing the bow
wave" and you have NO IDEA what math has to do with it? It was a math
statement, yo-yo.

I think Bob's success speaks for itself.

yes, he designed a pretty boat, in fact several pretty boats. That they under
perform relative to what they might (not my informed opinion but rather the
opinion of highly informed and thoroughly trained in the issues) does not in
any detract from their prettiness.

There is much to like about Perry designs, but no one but a fool worships them

Jax's claims, such
as having sex with various well known actresses

I have made no claim regarding actresses, well-known or not. Two centerfolds,
yes, but not actresses

or sailing around the
Atlantic
looking for the Gulf Stream for a week.

We didn't "sail around the Atlantic". We *did* sail 900 miles down the coast
trying to stay inside the Gulf Stream as it meandered around. We got caught a
couple times and had to tack. Once we got caught and no visual or compass or
gut feeling showed that our course made good had shifted 100*. Only our gps's
and and an onboard LORAN showed that to us.

Graduates of the JAXAshby Advanced School of Scientific Sounding Sailboat Gibberish.

felton wrote:
Is there a correspondence course? Do they offer any electives in
diesel mechanics?

LOL
and a Ph.D in sissy footwells.


I doubt I could get in...I struggle with math.

Too bad. Jax doesn't struggle with math, he ignores it completely except for a few
impressive sounding words he tosses in at random. For Jax, "science" is roughly akin to
"free word association."


.... Some people seem to think that the Valiant is
similar in more than superficial aesthetics to some kind of historic pilot cutter or
rescue vessel from the days of sail, but it is really a modern (1970s era) design.
In it's day it was not a crab-crusher, rather it was on the light end of the
displacement/length scale.



Well, I agree it is an "old" design. I have asked the Valiant folks if
they have considered that a newer design might be about due, but they
seem to feel that "if it aint broke, why fix it." Hard to argue with,
I suppose.

Sure. As Edey & Duff once said, the sea hasn't changed much.

OTOH it would be silly to ignore what has been learned about materials and design since
the 1970s, especially when applicable to whatever your particular goal might be. From
what I've read, Valiant has changed a few things including not using fire-retardant resin
any more.


While I have never been aboard a Passport, I suspect that
it might be a design that would have more appeal to me, particularly
the stern, as you mention. A large part of why I admire the Valiants,
though, is knowing the people who build them and seeing the way they
are put together. They are very well made, and that is something that
is every bit as important as the design.

I haven't been more than a casual guest on any Passports or Valiants either one, and so
can't comment on thier relative build quality. But one thing I like about the Valiants is
that they sail pretty well for their looks and their capacity, good design priorities.
IMHO their record offshore speaks to the judgement & skills of some of the people who
have chosen them.

At times past I've criticised this general type as "faux Colin Archers" (which they are),
but some of them are still good boats in their own right. There's a Valiant 40 at our
marina which has been getting an ambitious program of upgrades this past fall, it will be
interesting to meet the owner and see what he's got in mind.

FB
DSK

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:45:35 -0500, DSK wrote:



Graduates of the JAXAshby Advanced School of Scientific Sounding Sailboat Gibberish.

felton wrote:
Is there a correspondence course? Do they offer any electives in
diesel mechanics?

LOL
and a Ph.D in sissy footwells.


I doubt I could get in...I struggle with math.

Too bad. Jax doesn't struggle with math, he ignores it completely except for a few
impressive sounding words he tosses in at random. For Jax, "science" is roughly akin to
"free word association."




.... Some people seem to think that the Valiant is
similar in more than superficial aesthetics to some kind of historic pilot cutter or
rescue vessel from the days of sail, but it is really a modern (1970s era) design.
In it's day it was not a crab-crusher, rather it was on the light end of the
displacement/length scale.



Well, I agree it is an "old" design. I have asked the Valiant folks if
they have considered that a newer design might be about due, but they
seem to feel that "if it aint broke, why fix it." Hard to argue with,
I suppose.

Sure. As Edey & Duff once said, the sea hasn't changed much.

OTOH it would be silly to ignore what has been learned about materials and design since
the 1970s, especially when applicable to whatever your particular goal might be. From
what I've read, Valiant has changed a few things including not using fire-retardant resin
any more.

In fairness, that was back in the days when Valiants were built in
Washinton by Uniflite. That unfortunate episode resulted in the
demise of "old Valiant" and the birth of "Texas Valiant". No more
blister boats. Beyond that, they added bowsprits to the 40 and 47 and
now call them the 42 and the 50. They discontinued the 32 and the 37.
I thought the 37 was a good looking boat, but such is the way of the
boat business. It seems it costs almost as much to build a 37 as a
40, so why build the smaller boats.


While I have never been aboard a Passport, I suspect that
it might be a design that would have more appeal to me, particularly
the stern, as you mention. A large part of why I admire the Valiants,
though, is knowing the people who build them and seeing the way they
are put together. They are very well made, and that is something that
is every bit as important as the design.

I haven't been more than a casual guest on any Passports or Valiants either one, and so
can't comment on thier relative build quality. But one thing I like about the Valiants is
that they sail pretty well for their looks and their capacity, good design priorities.
IMHO their record offshore speaks to the judgement & skills of some of the people who
have chosen them.

At times past I've criticised this general type as "faux Colin Archers" (which they are),
but some of them are still good boats in their own right. There's a Valiant 40 at our
marina which has been getting an ambitious program of upgrades this past fall, it will be
interesting to meet the owner and see what he's got in mind.

FB
DSK

From
what I've read, Valiant has changed a few things including not using
fire-retardant resin
any more.

a quick study you are, doguies, that happened about a quarter century ago.

...Passports or Valiants either one, and so
can't comment on thier relative build quality.

Passport quality is excellent, as is usually Valiant.

But one thing I like about the Valiants is
that they sail pretty well for their looks and their capacity

nah. They sail okay "for their looks and capacity" but less so than other boat
of similar looks and capacity.

At times past I've criticised this general type as "faux Colin Archers"
(which they are)

A Passport looks like a Colin Archer? Since when?

And Valiant only looks like a Colin Archer from the deck up.

But one thing I like about the Valiants is
that they sail pretty well for their looks and their capacity

while a Passport, as beautiful as it is, is one seriously dog slow boat. A
Passport 37 is **ten THOUsand pounds** heavier than design weight. The
designer blames the builder and the builder says he built the boat he asked to
be designed.

A pretty boat of a high quality build, but slooooooow.

How would you know? You don't have any balls...

It was just a matter of time, folks.


RB

I certainly don't have tits Horass.


And again!

RB