ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH

In message .com
"peter" wrote:

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH


I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat (not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

Alan Adams wrote:
In message .com
"peter" wrote:


ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:

Hi there,


snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH



I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat (not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.



There are several ways of getting people back in. A listed few

1) The old traditional, opposite direction one as discussed above...
well that one is hard work, involves twisting and is very physical for
me as rescuer. Not recommended by me anymore.

2) The across deck, as discussed above - pretty good for small paddlers,
not so good with big paddlers, and little work for me ;-)

3) Boat to the side, victim comes up and across MY deck, using their
boat to pull themselves in. Victim needs to stay close to my Centre of
Gravity. Seems to work for most people, most sizes, except for the
extremely weak / unco-ordinated. This is my FAV, least work method.

4) Boat to the side, victim comes in on their boat's side at the cockpit
- I lift my side of the cockpit slightly so that I help to "scoop" them
into the boat. Works with smaller victims, who can almost swim in.

5) Boat to side, stabilized by me, victim climbs in up the tail of their
boat. Consider where you stabilize the boat - the bigger the person, the
nearer the nose you want to put your weight.

6) Use a looped sling to give the paddler a foot hold. Works best when
the paddler is on the far side of the boat from you. There are a number
of techniques for getting the foot "strop" - including clipping to you
(yuck!) Looping from a paddle shaft underneath the two boats, over the
victims - Over victims boat, under your boat, and back to your hand (a
friction based strop). Take you pick.

And my all time favourite...

7) There's the bank mate... off you go and get yourself in there. I
don't know how many times I have seen coaches (and others) struggle to
get people back in when there's a nearby bank.


Emptying boats

1) If there is a usable bank - use it.

2) If you have to empty it - use the victim or a nearby paddler. There
is no point straining yourself. I do, and I'm big 'n' strong. They fell
in after all ;-)

First get victim's bow onto your boat: Get boats lined up in T-shape -
send paddler to far end of their boat, and get them to push down and
swim to you. You grab the bow, and hold it on your deck. (TIP: Always go
for the bow first - this way the boats empty much better)

Second - get victim (or a.n.other paddler) to grab bow and pull across
your boat. The victim needs to swim to the other side of your boat from
their boat. Both feet on the side of you boat , grab boat with their
hands, and pull...

So far I have done no work...

Third - empty boat. Use the swimmer or another paddler - get them to
pull down on the bow. If you got the bow first, then that is the boat
empty enough for victim.

So far - still no work - difficult bit to come

Fourth - righting the boat - that's my job. Two hands on cockpit, raise
boat on to side. One hand grabs exposed bit of cockpit, and a push/pull
and boat is right way up, and right in front of you.

Phew... wasn't that hard work?

Tip: Always fit boats with air bags - it makes the rescue so much easier.



Sorry if this is teaching to suck eggs - just see too many people
struggling / hurting themselves.

HTH HAND

Peter

We use the second method, too climbing onto the front of the boat and we
manage it in polo boats. It's all a matter of balance...

Charlie.

"Alan Adams" wrote in message
...
In message .com
"peter" wrote:

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH


I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat
(not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a
Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb
far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a
major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the
strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Maybe I just need to have more confidence in my own abilities (and
learn to roll confidently). Its the what ifs that are the issue. What
if a client accidentally knocks me out with their paddle?

First time I was asked to go out on my own I was pretty horrified. I
know what the ratios are but one coach off site seemed a bit
(potentially) unsafe. I said I wasnt happy, my boss said not a problem
but if you cant do it we cant count your qualification and your wages
will be docked accordingly. Fair enough.

Im very grateful for all your feedback. Never again will I feel guilty
making a client help empty their boat. Geting them back in using a
sling sounds interesting - whats a good length to use? Is it likely to
snap your paddle?

For those of you who coach what ratios do you use? Is it usual for you
to take a novice group on your own.? Thanks again...

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

snip

Personally, I don't like working with no other backup either. I had an
incident a couple of years back, where I was concussed badly by a stray
paddle (unusualy I even had a helmet on that occasion). On the water in
a docks environment, with 8 kids, and one was classifiable as
uncoordinated.

The centre I help at uses a ratio of 1:6 with a minimum of 2 coaches on
the water. So the worst case is 2:12 / 3:18. I see this as sensible, and
employ that for my club, where we always have 2 people with a group
(although the second is sometimes a good 3* preferably with CST, because
we aren't blessed with coaches)

So, even as a more experienced, higher qualified coach, I agree with
your reluctance to do 1:8 in a remote location. Working for a centre, do
you have a risk assessment for this activity? What do they regard as the
risks?

Good Luck

Peter

On 3 Feb 2005 03:37:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

snip
Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Working out a way of keeping the group close together and close to the
shore will make your life easier. For example, if you're doing a
little journey use short legs to definite points and each time you
stop do some teaching/a game/etc. Experiment. Find something that
works for you and your location.

Maybe I just need to have more confidence in my own abilities (and
learn to roll confidently). Its the what ifs that are the issue. What
if a client accidentally knocks me out with their paddle?

Hopefully all the what-ifs should be dealt with in the risk assessment
and operating procedure. Is there a reasonable method of getting
assistance if required? (Not necessarily an emergency.)

First time I was asked to go out on my own I was pretty horrified. I
know what the ratios are but one coach off site seemed a bit
(potentially) unsafe. I said I wasnt happy, my boss said not a problem
but if you cant do it we cant count your qualification and your wages
will be docked accordingly. Fair enough.

They could have been a bit more constructive though and helped to find
a solution rather than what sounds like blackmail!

Im very grateful for all your feedback. Never again will I feel guilty
making a client help empty their boat. Geting them back in using a
sling sounds interesting - whats a good length to use? Is it likely to
snap your paddle?

I think it's a 4'/120cm sling (I always get confused about sling
sizes!), and it's a case of using it close to the boat so you don't
get a big leverage on the paddle. I'd recommend having a practice with
it (there are a few different ways to use it) before you have to use
it for real (it tends to be a last resort for me).

For those of you who coach what ratios do you use? Is it usual for you
to take a novice group on your own.? Thanks again...

I don't have a fixed ratio. It depends on the group, the conditions
and what we're trying to do. I seem to have been lucky in that
everywhere I've worked I've had a manager who's supported me if I've
turned round and said that I didn't feel a situation was appropriate.
In the end it's you that are out there on the water having to deal
with whatever happens. However any centre wants to get the highest
client : instructor ratio possible for financial reasons so it isn't
unusual for an instructor to have a group of beginners on their own.

--
Ste, Ambleside

I guess I am unsure as to whether I actually am Lvl 2 Kayak coach
standard - surely if I was I wouldn't be worrying like this....

In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

What do you when one kid decides he/she's too scared to go paddling - you
can't leave them on the shore on their own, you can't abandon the session
because your transport has gone. You'll probably end up having to play beach
games with no advance planning and unhappy kids. I've been in that situation
with 12-year-olds and had to exert quite a lot of pressure to get them on
the water. At the very least I'd want one of the group's own adults to be
present. You shouldn't rely on mobile phones for safety - too much can go
wrong, starting with water, low batteries...

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager ended
up in jail.

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

Never mind off-shore winds, any wind coming down a glen can create a
considerable swell. We paddled (my family) down from Strathyre onto
the head of Loch Lubnaig. As we entered the loch, what was, onshore, a
mild breeze became a considerable wind, and the swell created at the
head of the loch was siderable, within about 50 metres it was such
that our boats were disappearing from view in the troughs. We turned
west and beached. Our return trip was somewhat more rapid than our
outbopund trip!

Had we been with novices there would certainly have been capsizes.



I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

snip

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

To be fair there could be sheltered areas of a loch that would be
acceptable. Most L2 Coaches forget that they are only supposed to
travel not more than 750m from base. Kind of screws up any realistic
trips. Even on canals where the paddler will never be any more than a
couple of boat lengths from the bank!

snip

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

I had similar concerns.

Ewan Scott