Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

I also find it difficult, particularly with larger individuals to get
them back into the kayak. They usually find the
lie-on-your-back-and-get-your-feet-in first method is easiest for them
so this is the method I often use. It takes all of my strength and both
hands to hold their kayak so I am unable to assist them in anyway.
There have been times when I 've been pretty close to not being able to
hold the boat for them.

As I instruct solo (despite strong suggestions to the management this
may not be the best idea) I find this quite scary. I am the only
competent person with a group of eight novices. What if the victim is
too shocked to help me open the boat? What if I physically cannot get
the peron back into the boat because they are too heavy?

I would really appreciate any (useful) feedback and hints and tips from
you guys on both these aspects of the rescue (incidentally my technique
using the above methods is fine - it is strength that is lacking).
Thanks very much for your help.

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH

In message .com
"peter" wrote:

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH


I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat (not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

Alan Adams wrote:
In message .com
"peter" wrote:


ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:

Hi there,


snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH



I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat (not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.



There are several ways of getting people back in. A listed few

1) The old traditional, opposite direction one as discussed above...
well that one is hard work, involves twisting and is very physical for
me as rescuer. Not recommended by me anymore.

2) The across deck, as discussed above - pretty good for small paddlers,
not so good with big paddlers, and little work for me ;-)

3) Boat to the side, victim comes up and across MY deck, using their
boat to pull themselves in. Victim needs to stay close to my Centre of
Gravity. Seems to work for most people, most sizes, except for the
extremely weak / unco-ordinated. This is my FAV, least work method.

4) Boat to the side, victim comes in on their boat's side at the cockpit
- I lift my side of the cockpit slightly so that I help to "scoop" them
into the boat. Works with smaller victims, who can almost swim in.

5) Boat to side, stabilized by me, victim climbs in up the tail of their
boat. Consider where you stabilize the boat - the bigger the person, the
nearer the nose you want to put your weight.

6) Use a looped sling to give the paddler a foot hold. Works best when
the paddler is on the far side of the boat from you. There are a number
of techniques for getting the foot "strop" - including clipping to you
(yuck!) Looping from a paddle shaft underneath the two boats, over the
victims - Over victims boat, under your boat, and back to your hand (a
friction based strop). Take you pick.

And my all time favourite...

7) There's the bank mate... off you go and get yourself in there. I
don't know how many times I have seen coaches (and others) struggle to
get people back in when there's a nearby bank.


Emptying boats

1) If there is a usable bank - use it.

2) If you have to empty it - use the victim or a nearby paddler. There
is no point straining yourself. I do, and I'm big 'n' strong. They fell
in after all ;-)

First get victim's bow onto your boat: Get boats lined up in T-shape -
send paddler to far end of their boat, and get them to push down and
swim to you. You grab the bow, and hold it on your deck. (TIP: Always go
for the bow first - this way the boats empty much better)

Second - get victim (or a.n.other paddler) to grab bow and pull across
your boat. The victim needs to swim to the other side of your boat from
their boat. Both feet on the side of you boat , grab boat with their
hands, and pull...

So far I have done no work...

Third - empty boat. Use the swimmer or another paddler - get them to
pull down on the bow. If you got the bow first, then that is the boat
empty enough for victim.

So far - still no work - difficult bit to come

Fourth - righting the boat - that's my job. Two hands on cockpit, raise
boat on to side. One hand grabs exposed bit of cockpit, and a push/pull
and boat is right way up, and right in front of you.

Phew... wasn't that hard work?

Tip: Always fit boats with air bags - it makes the rescue so much easier.



Sorry if this is teaching to suck eggs - just see too many people
struggling / hurting themselves.

HTH HAND

Peter

We use the second method, too climbing onto the front of the boat and we
manage it in polo boats. It's all a matter of balance...

Charlie.

"Alan Adams" wrote in message
...
In message .com
"peter" wrote:

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Hi there,

snip

Thanks very much for your help.

I can't help with the emptying bit, but regarding getting them back in
their boat...
Are you still using the method where you hold their kayak alongside
your own, facing the opposite direction, with your arms round/over the
front of their cockpit? After a number of actual and near back injuries
from using this technique at places that I've taught, we started using
an alternative method, whereby you hold their boat sideways in front of
you, on top of your boat, with you facing forwards, arms out front - ie
no back twisting. The victim then climbs onto the front of your boat
and into theirs. In my experience this is much easier for both rescuer
and victim, and requires less physical strength. HTH


I've used this quite a bit. It works well if you instruct in a playboat
(not
too low volume though) as the front deck is flat enough for the victim to
get a purchase on. It seems to fail misreably if you instruct from a
Dancer,
for example, with a high, rounded and long deck. The victim can't climb
far
enough out of the water to start getting into their boat.

The downside of this rescue is if the victim is too heavy for the buoyancy
provided by the front of your boat - you then stand on end. It's not a
major
problem, as you are holding their boat for support, but it dumps them back
into the water.

This technique works best if the victim has the
strength/willingness/ability
to take a good part of their weight on their arms, applied to their boat,
thereby reducing the weight applied to your boat.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Maybe I just need to have more confidence in my own abilities (and
learn to roll confidently). Its the what ifs that are the issue. What
if a client accidentally knocks me out with their paddle?

First time I was asked to go out on my own I was pretty horrified. I
know what the ratios are but one coach off site seemed a bit
(potentially) unsafe. I said I wasnt happy, my boss said not a problem
but if you cant do it we cant count your qualification and your wages
will be docked accordingly. Fair enough.

Im very grateful for all your feedback. Never again will I feel guilty
making a client help empty their boat. Geting them back in using a
sling sounds interesting - whats a good length to use? Is it likely to
snap your paddle?

For those of you who coach what ratios do you use? Is it usual for you
to take a novice group on your own.? Thanks again...

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

snip

Personally, I don't like working with no other backup either. I had an
incident a couple of years back, where I was concussed badly by a stray
paddle (unusualy I even had a helmet on that occasion). On the water in
a docks environment, with 8 kids, and one was classifiable as
uncoordinated.

The centre I help at uses a ratio of 1:6 with a minimum of 2 coaches on
the water. So the worst case is 2:12 / 3:18. I see this as sensible, and
employ that for my club, where we always have 2 people with a group
(although the second is sometimes a good 3* preferably with CST, because
we aren't blessed with coaches)

So, even as a more experienced, higher qualified coach, I agree with
your reluctance to do 1:8 in a remote location. Working for a centre, do
you have a risk assessment for this activity? What do they regard as the
risks?

Good Luck

Peter

On 3 Feb 2005 03:37:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

snip
Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Working out a way of keeping the group close together and close to the
shore will make your life easier. For example, if you're doing a
little journey use short legs to definite points and each time you
stop do some teaching/a game/etc. Experiment. Find something that
works for you and your location.

Maybe I just need to have more confidence in my own abilities (and
learn to roll confidently). Its the what ifs that are the issue. What
if a client accidentally knocks me out with their paddle?

Hopefully all the what-ifs should be dealt with in the risk assessment
and operating procedure. Is there a reasonable method of getting
assistance if required? (Not necessarily an emergency.)

First time I was asked to go out on my own I was pretty horrified. I
know what the ratios are but one coach off site seemed a bit
(potentially) unsafe. I said I wasnt happy, my boss said not a problem
but if you cant do it we cant count your qualification and your wages
will be docked accordingly. Fair enough.

They could have been a bit more constructive though and helped to find
a solution rather than what sounds like blackmail!

Im very grateful for all your feedback. Never again will I feel guilty
making a client help empty their boat. Geting them back in using a
sling sounds interesting - whats a good length to use? Is it likely to
snap your paddle?

I think it's a 4'/120cm sling (I always get confused about sling
sizes!), and it's a case of using it close to the boat so you don't
get a big leverage on the paddle. I'd recommend having a practice with
it (there are a few different ways to use it) before you have to use
it for real (it tends to be a last resort for me).

For those of you who coach what ratios do you use? Is it usual for you
to take a novice group on your own.? Thanks again...

I don't have a fixed ratio. It depends on the group, the conditions
and what we're trying to do. I seem to have been lucky in that
everywhere I've worked I've had a manager who's supported me if I've
turned round and said that I didn't feel a situation was appropriate.
In the end it's you that are out there on the water having to deal
with whatever happens. However any centre wants to get the highest
client : instructor ratio possible for financial reasons so it isn't
unusual for an instructor to have a group of beginners on their own.

--
Ste, Ambleside

In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

What do you when one kid decides he/she's too scared to go paddling - you
can't leave them on the shore on their own, you can't abandon the session
because your transport has gone. You'll probably end up having to play beach
games with no advance planning and unhappy kids. I've been in that situation
with 12-year-olds and had to exert quite a lot of pressure to get them on
the water. At the very least I'd want one of the group's own adults to be
present. You shouldn't rely on mobile phones for safety - too much can go
wrong, starting with water, low batteries...

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager ended
up in jail.

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

On 2 Feb 2005 08:13:57 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

I am a similar size and weight to yourself and too almost exclusively
work alone, admitedly recently with fairly small groups. If the
capsizee (ok it's not a word...) exits the boat while it's upside down
then there is very little water in the boat and it is just a case of
making sure you get the cockpit out of the water quick enough so you
don't fill the boat up. This isn't difficult once you've worked out
the technique. However the capsizee often doesn't exit cleanly in
which case there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking them to
assist you in emptying the boat.

I also find it difficult, particularly with larger individuals to get
them back into the kayak. They usually find the
lie-on-your-back-and-get-your-feet-in first method is easiest for them
so this is the method I often use. It takes all of my strength and both
hands to hold their kayak so I am unable to assist them in anyway.
There have been times when I 've been pretty close to not being able to
hold the boat for them.

What other ways have you tried? A lot of people find the
lay-back-in-the-water method hard unless you're quite agile. I often
use the drag-yourself-over-the-side method or a short sling on a
paddle as a foot hold. Or if all else fails get them to shore and get
them back in (since I'll be close to shore with unsteady beginners).
Or get other members of the group to help steady the boat. Or...

If you are steadying the boat on your own, try getting your body right
over their boat, so your boat is on quite an edge. Use both hands on
the boat if you need to (I do). You can do more to keep their boat
stable than you can do to drag them in.


As I instruct solo (despite strong suggestions to the management this
may not be the best idea) I find this quite scary. I am the only
competent person with a group of eight novices. What if the victim is
too shocked to help me open the boat? What if I physically cannot get
the peron back into the boat because they are too heavy?

Speak to your managers again. The 1:8 ratio is just a GUIDELINE
depending on the group and the conditions. I have often taken more and
just as often refused to take less. If you are really not happy with a
group size then any decent manager won't make you take them (alone).
If they still won't listen put it in writing, keep a copy, and look
for someone decent to work for (seriously).

If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been teaching kayaking,
what sort of level are you paddling at? I get the impression that
you've not been doing it that long. Do you get much opportunity to
work with more experienced coaches?


I would really appreciate any (useful) feedback and hints and tips from
you guys on both these aspects of the rescue (incidentally my technique
using the above methods is fine - it is strength that is lacking).
Thanks very much for your help.

With a good technique you don't really need much strength, but it is a
case of learning really good technique. Anyway I've rambled enough.
Hope some of this helps.

--
Ste, Ambleside