"If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation"

What safety boats .... its just me

In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

If you're operating in this sort of wind, you need to ensure it is onshore.
Anything else, as you've found, leads to problems. A raft will drift a LOT
faster than a rescue, because for most of the time a rescue is tethered in
place by the drag of the swimmer. A raft has a lot less resistance. Sending
them to shore is possibly a better option - not doing that was highlighted
as part of the cause of the Lyme Bay incident - they rafted instead, and
drifted out to sea.

Incidentally, in windy condiions you do start your trips upwind, don't you?
The river section I've done a lot of tasters on, forces the start to be
downstream and usually downwind. 10 minutes paddling out, 40 minutes
paddling back sometimes.

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal.

That's close to being unapproved - you should never be assessed and trained
by the same people, and it is better for your breadth of knowledge to do
training and assessment with different organisations. You should be learning
during both events.

I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..


snip


The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor.

With a three hour session (now that's long) you should have time for a
double journey. If you're further from base than that, then you're really in
trouble, on your own without transport.

You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...


That sounds like a good idea. (I haven't done one yet, so I'm not sure what
it contains). I would also suggest level 3 coach training. Taking training
before you expect to be ready for assessment can be very good, as you come
out with an action plan which helps you fix up your weaker areas, and gives
you lots to think about. BUT don't do it internally - you need to see other
viewpoints, and get to talk things through with other coaches and
candidates. As you've seen from this group, other views can help. Without
that you get in a rut of thinking what you've "always done" must be OK.

Hmm... Three hour session... Too long for just "taster" activities, and yes
they will get bored if you stick to that. Long enough for those more able to
really develop away from the others. You really need to be teaching, rather
than introducing, to keep their interest. Getting the better paddlers to
help is going to be a good strategy, as it keeps them occupied and
interested, and will also help the others. Just avoid allowing them to show
off too much as it can be off-putting to those who find it difficult.


--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

On 4 Feb 2005 10:05:00 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

"If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation"

What safety boats .... its just me


Read what I said. Find a way of trying it out, find someone to be your
safety boat. Ask around the local clubs, arrange for a coupl of
experienced paddlers to help you out as a favour - they can just
happen to be there.

Ewan Scott

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
I have this weird theory that off-site sessions should have minimum 2
instructors in case something major happens (which it can)., As
Peter said above - he got concussed by a kid waving a paddle (even
wearing a helmet) Its that sort of extreme situation which really
worries me.

I would agree with you. I would only be prepared to work in these
situations if I knew I could rely on the members of the group I was
instructing, or if the area being used for paddling was totally safe
(for example, if someone capsized they could stand up) and other help
was reasonably close at hand.

If you have to work in these situations, I would explain your concerns
to the kids before you start and then tell them what you would like then
to do.

In terms of rescues, have you considered asking the swimmer to use a
T-rescue where the kayak is pushed sideways up the front of your kayak.

Bill

Just got the latest Canoe and Kayak UK through the door. Interesting
article on deep water rescues. Seems to be re-iterating all the stuff I
was taught - why don't they publish some of the other methods you guys
have been teaching me? It seems that skills taught seem to be very
ingrained and people don't like to teach new (better?) ways of doing
things.

My favourite part in the article and I quote, " Sometimes people are
not physically strong enough to get back into their boat. If this does
happen you need to deal with the scenario".

Why thanks , that was really helpful - how exactly should I deal with
that scenario - growl...

Me again.
It is rare the day I CAN'T go for a paddle.
It is not so rare that the day that I and often other paddlers with
lots of skill ( 6 people with good rolls all in wet or dry suits, good
rescue skills all around. ) Say no, lets not go here and head off to
some other spot.
At 47 I have the confidence to do that.
I have also called adventure races for 3 or 4 foot waves. I was comfy
but the athletes would not be.
Chipscheeseandmayo you are likely a fine instructor. Your questions and
doubts about yourself likely put you in better stead than you think.
I have been cought out with friends in bad conditions, it is not
pleasant to see friends scared when it is no real problem for you but
it truly is for them.
Your consideration is fine.
My recommendations for rescue and emptying a boat stand: but your
judgement is what will keep you and your friends safe.
I have been in ( assisting instruction ) one CRCA sea kayaking course
where we had 10 candidates and 4 instructors. Things went to crap and
we had multiple swimmers , winds hit 70 - 80 KM waves were at 4 feet,
water temp was about 7 C.
Everyone on the course thought we "The instructors" were great.
I thought WE sucked eggs.
It did get much worse as we were on a crossing but before we left on a
2 KM crossing I had a bad feeling. ( One of those gut things you get
for getting old. ) I never voiced it!!!!

Another incident on another course saw waves a little higher than
recommended and we had a candidate walk out.
Again we should have taken more time to consider the most conservative
voice scenario.
Bad stuff happens. On both those trips / courses I would have traded
that exciting trip for a mundane " No lets put this off, or go to a
more sheltered spot !" type of day.
We got lucky because the instructor client ratio was rediculously good
in one course and the skill level of a couple of candidates accompanied
by a very high instructor student ratio existed on the second. The
second trip we had five instructors for 17 clients and a couple of the
students were already very good paddlers.
Chipscheeseandmayo you are fine . Oh, In Canada we would call you
Poutine.
Take care. I am sitting at my desk because we are getting 20 CM of snow
with 80 KM winds and freezing rain. Not a good day to paddle.
Alex