On 3 Feb 2005 03:37:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

snip
Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Working out a way of keeping the group close together and close to the
shore will make your life easier. For example, if you're doing a
little journey use short legs to definite points and each time you
stop do some teaching/a game/etc. Experiment. Find something that
works for you and your location.

Maybe I just need to have more confidence in my own abilities (and
learn to roll confidently). Its the what ifs that are the issue. What
if a client accidentally knocks me out with their paddle?

Hopefully all the what-ifs should be dealt with in the risk assessment
and operating procedure. Is there a reasonable method of getting
assistance if required? (Not necessarily an emergency.)

First time I was asked to go out on my own I was pretty horrified. I
know what the ratios are but one coach off site seemed a bit
(potentially) unsafe. I said I wasnt happy, my boss said not a problem
but if you cant do it we cant count your qualification and your wages
will be docked accordingly. Fair enough.

They could have been a bit more constructive though and helped to find
a solution rather than what sounds like blackmail!

Im very grateful for all your feedback. Never again will I feel guilty
making a client help empty their boat. Geting them back in using a
sling sounds interesting - whats a good length to use? Is it likely to
snap your paddle?

I think it's a 4'/120cm sling (I always get confused about sling
sizes!), and it's a case of using it close to the boat so you don't
get a big leverage on the paddle. I'd recommend having a practice with
it (there are a few different ways to use it) before you have to use
it for real (it tends to be a last resort for me).

For those of you who coach what ratios do you use? Is it usual for you
to take a novice group on your own.? Thanks again...

I don't have a fixed ratio. It depends on the group, the conditions
and what we're trying to do. I seem to have been lucky in that
everywhere I've worked I've had a manager who's supported me if I've
turned round and said that I didn't feel a situation was appropriate.
In the end it's you that are out there on the water having to deal
with whatever happens. However any centre wants to get the highest
client : instructor ratio possible for financial reasons so it isn't
unusual for an instructor to have a group of beginners on their own.

--
Ste, Ambleside

I guess I am unsure as to whether I actually am Lvl 2 Kayak coach
standard - surely if I was I wouldn't be worrying like this....

In message .com
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote:

I am a level 2 kayak coach since two years ago. I gained this
qualifcation working for a large activity holiday provider. While I
worked there we used a 3 coach to 24kid ratio and one of the coaches
was a level 3. This was good as although it was still strictly within
the one to eight you always had backup if you needed it.

Now its a 1 to eight ratio which is fine onsite. Kids fall in swim to
the side and empty their own boats. If they are freezing they go off
and get showered. (No wetsuits)

Its offsite thats the issue. I get dropped off with eight (older)
clients at the lochside. The minibus then leaves. We pile the kids
change of clothes (if they have actually managed to bring what was
asked) under a Kisu and leave them on the bank. No changing facilities
or showers. (I do have a mobile but reception is very dodgy)

So I'm there on my own with eight clients and no bank support. This is
a pretty huge loch. I explain to the clients that it is important they
stay close to the bank and to me. At first they do then they get more
confident and we end up spread over say 20 m 50m from the shore, (Why
is there always one client who just cant paddle. Another reason two
coaches is good one can help the slower ones). And probably a few
hundred m from the get in. So if someone falls in I really am on my
own. This is the scary bit.

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

What do you when one kid decides he/she's too scared to go paddling - you
can't leave them on the shore on their own, you can't abandon the session
because your transport has gone. You'll probably end up having to play beach
games with no advance planning and unhappy kids. I've been in that situation
with 12-year-olds and had to exert quite a lot of pressure to get them on
the water. At the very least I'd want one of the group's own adults to be
present. You shouldn't rely on mobile phones for safety - too much can go
wrong, starting with water, low batteries...

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager ended
up in jail.

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

First of all the rant! Your employer is being un reasonable in what they
appear to be blackmailing you into! Get out and work for someone decent!

Now the paddling. No shame in struggling to empty a master. They are big
and have very little bouyancy if not airbagged, and I get my 'victim' to do
as much of the work as possible. I am 6ft tall and 17 stone, btw.

My usual rescue technique is to park their boat alongside mine, bow to
stern, they come oaround to the outside of their boat, and then climb up
over their boat to end up lying across the two boats before sliding legs
into their boat and getting themselves seated. They can use the cockpit
rims as hand holds, kicking with their legs helps, and as a last resort i
can reach over them, grab the back of their BA and pull them up. Usually
all I have to do is lie across their boat to steady them. If they can get
hold of my cockpit then rotating the boat will pull them up too.

This is easily converted to the strop rescue, by laying the strop over the
boats and securing it with the victims paddle, or by feeding it back through
itself.

I would always raft up the rest of the group. Might take a while, and even
be beyond some of them, but they will all be trying to stay together!! YOu
will drift with them to a greater or lesser extent, and even if you get a
bit away from them, it is better that they are all more or less together!

If you really can't get victim back into the boat, then you can use the raft
to help you as described by other posters.

Try and get some tips from your employer, it might just be that they don't
understand your concerns, and if asked will provide advice, but i'm not
convinced!

Get along to one of the coach updates, I did one on manual handling and
rescues, and found it very useful. Also if you have access t pool
sessions, you can spen an entertaining hour trying out all sort of weird and
wonderful rescue ideas in the comfort of the pool, and not at your wits end.

Good Luck

MW
"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote in message
oups.com...
"I've had three 3 star paddlers involved in rescuing this big lad. he
has sunk two instructors and flooded his own boat in rescues, so if in
that situation you need to find a way that works for you - even if it
isn't textbook. "

Thats the sort of situation I am worried about - any ideas for
unorthodox methods?

For waht its worth the others don't raft up if there is a capsize
a) beyond their abilities
b) they would really catch the wind and be miles away by the time
rescue completed.

" The Strop Rescue"

I assume this means using a sling. I thought you put the sling over the
capsizees boat and hooked it over their paddle which you have rotated
so it is under both boats (I have never done this btw, just theory). So
how does it work putting it over both boats?

On 3 Feb 2005 05:47:01 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

"I've had three 3 star paddlers involved in rescuing this big lad. he
has sunk two instructors and flooded his own boat in rescues, so if in
that situation you need to find a way that works for you - even if it
isn't textbook. "

Thats the sort of situation I am worried about - any ideas for
unorthodox methods?

For waht its worth the others don't raft up if there is a capsize
a) beyond their abilities

No it's not. Even complete novices can get the message on rafting up.

When you get them on the water this is the procedure.

1/ you get on the water first.
You assist each other paddler getting onto the water. As they second
paddler gets on he gets told to join up with the first. That way right
at the outset you have your group under control so that you can
demonstrate and tell them what you expect them to do. They have, into
the bargain, discovered how tor aft up.

2/Before moving off you advise them that if there is any capsize, that
you will deal with it, and they should raft up. Alternately in near
the shore, get ashore. (But there are issues here too)

b) they would really catch the wind and be miles away by the time
rescue completed.

They would at least be together. Leave them scattered and they could
be spread across acres of water by the time you have struggled with
your rescue.

There are three issues here. One is your group control, another is
your rand the third is yopur emergency procedure.

If you can deal with the former, the remainder become less of an
issue. something you said in another post concerns me.

You question your ability...

I guess I am unsure as to whether I actually am Lvl 2 Kayak coach
standard - surely if I was I wouldn't be worrying like this....

Are you or are you not? Did you do the training, did you do the hours,
did you do the assessment? If so, then you are, and it is the duty of
every coach to improve their skills, this is just part of improving
those skills.

One thing that I see a lot of is lack of Group Control. The rescue
staff at the local wter park see lots of it too. When you get people
out on the water the only way to stay safe is to retain group control.
You need to call them in to order, make sure they are buddied up at
least, but certainly don't let them wander off. If you have group
control they will do what you ask them in an emergency. if you don't,
then they could be anywhere because they don't know what to do if
things go pearshaped.

I just noticed the female bit. I'm afraid it doesn't wash. Emptying
the boat is a question of style rather than muscle. I've got 13 year
old lasses doing eskimo rescues amd putting me back in my boat. Sorry
if this sounds arrogant, but you need to look at your style and how
you tackle the job. Here's a suggestion that might be way, way off
beam. If so I apologise.

Did you do your training in a macho male environment? If you did you
may have seen muscular lads hauling boats across their decks without
thinking twice about how they did it. They would just teach you to do
the same instead of developing a technique that helps you do the job
without using every muscle in your body.

I've seen men teaching and there can be a macho thing about muscles
and power. I've seen women teach and usually they show more finesse,
more technique.

Ewan Scott

Do your risk assessments mention wind direction and strength? A wind off the
nearest shore of a large loch is a similar risk to offshore wind at sea -
don't do it with novices.

Never mind off-shore winds, any wind coming down a glen can create a
considerable swell. We paddled (my family) down from Strathyre onto
the head of Loch Lubnaig. As we entered the loch, what was, onshore, a
mild breeze became a considerable wind, and the swell created at the
head of the loch was siderable, within about 50 metres it was such
that our boats were disappearing from view in the troughs. We turned
west and beached. Our return trip was somewhat more rapid than our
outbopund trip!

Had we been with novices there would certainly have been capsizes.



I am a fairly experienced level 3 coach, who's done a lot of these sessions
with kids - and I wouldn't be happy in that situation.

snip

You might want to look at the "terms of reference" for a level 2 coach. I
can't find it on the BCU web site, but I think for an "inland kayak level 2"
coach it refers to "sheltered inland water". A loch doesn't qualify as
"sheltered". You would probably need a sea coach to be properly covered.
This means that your employer is being unfair to you, both in asking you to
coach like that, and in effectively threatening you when you are unhappy. It
all sounds too much like the situation at Lyme Bay.

To be fair there could be sheltered areas of a loch that would be
acceptable. Most L2 Coaches forget that they are only supposed to
travel not more than 750m from base. Kind of screws up any realistic
trips. Even on canals where the paddler will never be any more than a
couple of boat lengths from the bank!

snip

I may be reading too much into your description. I hope so.

I had similar concerns.

Ewan Scott

Alan Adams wrote:

If you haven't read that up in detail, you should. The issues were

Coaches who weren't qualified for the conditions (coastal water)
Coaches has expressed their concern to management, who didn't want to
know
A group got scattered in an increasing offshore wind and several died

Fortunately for the coaches, they had expressed their concerns in
writing,
which was what enabled them to avoid prosecution. The centre manager
ended
up in jail.

And following the Lyme Bay incident, the Adventure Activities Licensing
Authority (AALA) was set up. Your centre is, I believe, legally bound
to be licensed by them. On their website (http://www.aala.org) they
have plenty of guidelines and advice. This document in particular
http://www.aala.org/pdf/02_06_10_GPinES_Version_Two.pdf
has information relevant to your situation.
If you think your employer is operating dangerously outside the
guidelines then they are the right people to deal with it.

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal. I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..

I can do eskimo rescues no prob - unfortunately that is not in option
for me. They are paddling boats with no decks so they just fall out.
Perceptive comment though - paddling wherever I have done it I am
usually the only girlie. The only method I have ever seen of emptying
boats is of bloke effortlessly dragging boat over their own and
emptying - sometimes they would even empty it held over their heads
This is the method I was taught and the method I thought was right. I
was vaguely aware that you may occasionally get the victim to assist -
it never really struck me as being an OK thing to do - I always saw it
as a failure and an inadequacy on the instructors part - boy have you
guys changed my mind!

There is a sheltered(ish) area to this Loch but we tend not use it as
it tends to be older kids we take to the loch and they get really bored
in this small bay - we like to paddle them up the Loch a bit so they
feel they are really kayaking - which makes it hard to stop and play
games because I really dont want them to fall in (three hour session)

Peter, I may not have painted my current employer in a particularly
nice light but generally they are fine. Im a lot more impressed with
their ethos and safety procedures than at my previous centre.

I remember Lyme bay, and I know its the reason AALA was set up. In
really serious conditions I would turn around and say no. The problem
is (and this is probably naive) I have a certain loyalty toward my
employer. As well as safety I feel I have to consider the fact that
disappointed clients is bad. Hell, jsut writing that I realised how
stupid its sounds. The problem is, everyone else does it without a
murmur whereas I would be so much more comfortable with a second coach.
I don't believe I am operating outside the BCU guidelines, however I
have this weird theory that off-site sessions should have minimum 2
instructors in case something major happens (which it can)., As Peter
said above - he got concussed by a kid waving a paddle (even wearing a
helmet) Its that sort of extreme situation which really worries me.

The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor. You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...

On 4 Feb 2005 04:00:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Wow - lots of answers overnight and lots of questions

Ewan - thats a great tip about getting them to raft up as they got on -
I will definetly give it a try. I still have a concern about rafting up
- it can be pretty windy in in a raft they could get a long way
downwind during the duration of a rescue. At least if they are milling
around they can paddle to stay in the general area. But then I suppose
if a couple more capsize then I am screwed. So yes, I will try getting
them to raft up in case of capsize. I guess maybe pick out a couple of
more able novices to be my "deputies"

If they don't raft up they will mill about. I'd suggest you try it in
a controlled set of circumstances where your safety boats do not get
involved but just monitor the situation. Whilst you struggle to carry
out a rescue you'r eye is off the ball. By the time you have finished
I'll warrant your milling about is all over the shop.

If you raft them up, yes they will drift, but they will be together,
and you will drift at almost the same rate as them.

I did the training, the hours and passed the assessment. The training
was internal, the hours were internal and the asessment was
semi-internal. I felt qualified for what I was doing at that centre
i.e. teaching on ponds or on a loch but with 2 other back up
instructors. I had never coached on my own prior to my current
centre. I guess I question my qualification because well lets just say
- my SPA training with same employer was signed off after one day (its
meant to be 2 days min)..

I'd guess that your centre is at fault. If anything goes pear-shaped
you are in deep ****. You are on the water, you are in charge. If you
are unhappy about the situation you are putting your own life and that
of others at risk. That is not right. You have a duty of care. Taking
8 kids out on your own with no failsafe is really risky. I usually
work with my wife and we can take 16, but we usually only take 12. if
anything goes wrong one of us is able to go for help. if I were on my
own I'd be screwed.

Ask yourself this, if I lose someone (God forbid) what will the
coronor say when I tell him I was on my own with no back up? How will
the Procurator Fiscal view the situation? And how will the High Court
view your case when the parents/partner of the victim sue for damages
- an njury has happened, there has been a failing on the centre's
part, probably on yours, and there may well be a link between the two.
In which case you are completely stuck.

I know that's a worst case scenario, but if you are earning a living
from this, or even if you just enjoy it, that is what you have to have
at the back of your mind. I'm sure that you are an able paddler and
probably a capable teacher but that doesn't mean you should allow your
centre to force you to cut corners. (I'll not comment on the SPA
signing off)

I can do eskimo rescues no prob - unfortunately that is not in option
for me. They are paddling boats with no decks so they just fall out.
Perceptive comment though - paddling wherever I have done it I am
usually the only girlie. The only method I have ever seen of emptying
boats is of bloke effortlessly dragging boat over their own and
emptying - sometimes they would even empty it held over their heads

Macho pratts. If they were actually any good as coaches they would
teach the best practice. Showing off is about the worst practice in my
book.

This is the method I was taught and the method I thought was right. I
was vaguely aware that you may occasionally get the victim to assist -
it never really struck me as being an OK thing to do - I always saw it
as a failure and an inadequacy on the instructors part - boy have you
guys changed my mind!

Glad we have helped with that at least. For an assessment you can
instruct your victim in how to help. In real life situations getting
them back in the boat is a success, anything else is a failure, how
you do it doesn't matter. Your measure of success is how short a time
they spend in the water.

There is a sheltered(ish) area to this Loch but we tend not use it as
it tends to be older kids we take to the loch and they get really bored
in this small bay - we like to paddle them up the Loch a bit so they
feel they are really kayaking - which makes it hard to stop and play
games because I really dont want them to fall in (three hour session)

Right, if they get bored it suggests an attitude problem. here's how I
sort it out.

We get in, they raft up as we get in, (if they are beginners). Then we
tell them they are going to paddle to a given point. We buddy them up
and herd them to the area we intend using. One of us whips in the
stragglers. the other stays with the main group.

When we get there, if there is any crap about it being boring we make
them capsize. In fact, with beginners we make them capsize first, if
they can do it we stick a spray deck on and make them do it again.
Then they paddle with a deck on.

We play games such as Sharks and Minnows (Bulldog on the water), they
love it. Lots of contact, lots of splashing and they get a real grasp
of the feel of the boat. (Mind you, you do need a second able paddler
as a safety boat.


Peter, I may not have painted my current employer in a particularly
nice light but generally they are fine. Im a lot more impressed with
their ethos and safety procedures than at my previous centre.

snip

The problem is we dont have enough boats or trailer space to take a
group of 16 hence they cant justify another instructor.

Believe me they will wish they had justified another instructor if
something goes wrong.

You guys are
really helping me out though. I have never seen a coaching viewpoint
other than at my previous centre. Maybe I need to go on a coaching
processes course to open my eyes a bit...

You need to work with other coaches. You need to work with different
abilities.

Listen; I've got kids we coach that we have known for years. We think
that they uinderstand us and get on with us. If i bring in another
instructor they ALWAYS learn something new from them that they haven't
from me. The thing is I learn too - sometimes it is how not to deal
with a situation too.

Ewan Scott