Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

I also find it difficult, particularly with larger individuals to get
them back into the kayak. They usually find the
lie-on-your-back-and-get-your-feet-in first method is easiest for them
so this is the method I often use. It takes all of my strength and both
hands to hold their kayak so I am unable to assist them in anyway.
There have been times when I 've been pretty close to not being able to
hold the boat for them.

As I instruct solo (despite strong suggestions to the management this
may not be the best idea) I find this quite scary. I am the only
competent person with a group of eight novices. What if the victim is
too shocked to help me open the boat? What if I physically cannot get
the peron back into the boat because they are too heavy?

I would really appreciate any (useful) feedback and hints and tips from
you guys on both these aspects of the rescue (incidentally my technique
using the above methods is fine - it is strength that is lacking).
Thanks very much for your help.

On 2 Feb 2005 08:09:23 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

I also find it difficult, particularly with larger individuals to get
them back into the kayak. They usually find the
lie-on-your-back-and-get-your-feet-in first method is easiest for them
so this is the method I often use. It takes all of my strength and both
hands to hold their kayak so I am unable to assist them in anyway.
There have been times when I 've been pretty close to not being able to
hold the boat for them.

As I instruct solo (despite strong suggestions to the management this
may not be the best idea) I find this quite scary. I am the only
competent person with a group of eight novices. What if the victim is
too shocked to help me open the boat? What if I physically cannot get
the peron back into the boat because they are too heavy?

I would really appreciate any (useful) feedback and hints and tips from
you guys on both these aspects of the rescue (incidentally my technique
using the above methods is fine - it is strength that is lacking).
Thanks very much for your help.

As this appears to be sea kayaking info, I don't have a lot of help
(I'm a WW boater).

If you can get to them before they bail out (or fall out), you can
sometimes use an "eskimo rescue" (if they are trained) to get them up
before they bail.

Also, there is a "hand of god" technique where you can flip them back
up... it takes surprisingly little effort.

Once they bail then things get more difficult.
As for draining the boat, you may want to look into some small stick
bilge pumps and/or a large automotive/bilge sponge. It takes a long
time with the sponge, but eventually works.

On a training / safety note - I would think about doing things like
wet exits, eskimo rescues & wet re-entries in shallow water before
they go out. If they can't handle it, then (regretfully) cancel them
from the class.

just my opinions... YMMV.

Ted

Its not sea kayaking, but flat water kayaking in beginner boats so
things like hand pumps etc not practiable. As its a taster session
paddling in scotland getting them wet at the very start is not a good
idea either as it is bl**dy freezing up here and quite frequently once
they;ve got wet they have to go and get changed and miss the rest of
the session. As it is a taster session they also are not wearing
spraydecks.

On 2 Feb 2005 08:57:38 -0800, "ChipsCheeseandMayo"
wrote:

Its not sea kayaking, but flat water kayaking in beginner boats so
things like hand pumps etc not practiable. As its a taster session
paddling in scotland getting them wet at the very start is not a good
idea either as it is bl**dy freezing up here and quite frequently once
they;ve got wet they have to go and get changed and miss the rest of
the session. As it is a taster session they also are not wearing
spraydecks.

Then I absolutely would not do a single instructor setting.
A student/instructor ratio of 1x8 is too large when you have a
hypothermia risk.

You may want to look at a split session - one in a pool for doing the
safety session, and then an on-water session.

Ted

Unless you have a better solution, I suggest that hand pumps are a very
viable solution, even if only the instructor carries one. Hand pumps
come in various sizes. You kind of casually discard that solution as
"impractical" without any good reason, it seems to me.

I have seen electric battery bailing pumps used in a whitewater canoe,
and it was pretty impressive to see water pouring out pipes on both
sides of the canoe without anyone lifting a hand. This was a permanent
installation, but you could use a portable electric bilge pump to empty
a kayak.

I agree with the other poster that what you have described sounds
unsafe, and you need to take more steps to make it safer. Do the
students wear wetsuits?

Richard



ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:
Its not sea kayaking, but flat water kayaking in beginner boats so
things like hand pumps etc not practiable. As its a taster session
paddling in scotland getting them wet at the very start is not a good
idea either as it is bl**dy freezing up here and quite frequently once
they;ve got wet they have to go and get changed and miss the rest of
the session. As it is a taster session they also are not wearing
spraydecks.

"ChipsCheeseandMayo" wrote in
oups.com:

Hi there,

I am involved in teaching to people to kayak, and inevitably sometimes
they fall in. Before anyone gets too horrifed - yes, I can rescue
someone but I need to use them to help empty the kayak.

My problem is I am physically quite weak, quite short and quite light.
(5'3" and about 9stone)

I find it generally impossible to empty a kayak unaided (the "victim"
helps as I am instructing solo). To elaborate - I drag the capsized
kayak over my own (usually we use Pyranha Masters which are quite
large) I get it so that the cockpit is over my cockpit. I lean out as
far as I can to try and use my weight to see-saw the kayak. It is at
this point I fail dismally. I am entirely incapable of getting the
water logged end of the boat (the rear end usually with twin air bags)
out of the water so that I can drain water out.

First, the use of whitewater kayaks with float bags may be part of the
problem. If the the float bags don't fill in all of the gaps you're going
to get some water in the stern and it's going to be harder to lift.



I also find it difficult, particularly with larger individuals to get
them back into the kayak. They usually find the
lie-on-your-back-and-get-your-feet-in first method is easiest for them
so this is the method I often use.

The trick here is to make sure that they're lying on their stomach first and
keeping the center of gravity low (keep their head and chest close to the
rear deck) and then rotate their body as they slide their feet in. It can
be especially tricky with a whitewater boat that has a support structure in
the bow because you've got to cross your feet while lying on your stomach
before turning over.


It takes all of my strength and both
hands to hold their kayak so I am unable to assist them in anyway.
There have been times when I 've been pretty close to not being able to
m hold the boat for them.
You need to really get your upper body onto their boat (I assume you're
orienting the boats bow to stern first), grab onto the cockit rim, then pull
the boats together. Once you're laying on the bow deck of their boat it
makes a stable platform. I've had people stand up in the cockpit of their
boat before sitting down but it's much easier if they're taking direction
and keeping their center of gravity low.

As I instruct solo (despite strong suggestions to the management this
may not be the best idea) I find this quite scary. I am the only
competent person with a group of eight novices. What if the victim is
too shocked to help me open the boat? What if I physically cannot get
the peron back into the boat because they are too heavy?

You may want to practice a "hand of god" rescue with someone that is
intentionally unresponsive. There are techniques for getting someone back
upright if, for example, they've dislocated a shoulder. If they're still
cognitively responsive you can have them put their feet in the cockit of
their boat as it's lying on it's side. Then grab the back of their PFD with
one hand and and the cockpit rim of their boat with the other. If you pull
them toward the back deck as you turn their boat back upright it's much
easier. You'll have to pump/sponge out a lot of water but at least they're
back in their boat and upright.

Dealing with a unresponsive or worse yet a victim in a state of panic is
another story. As cruel as it may sound sometimes you may even have to push
someone away from your boat if you think that the may try to climb onto your
boat and cause you to capsize as well. When someone capsizes the very first
thing you need to do is establish verbal communication to determine their
psychological state. You must take control and let them know that you can
only help them if they listen and follow your instructions.

I would really appreciate any (useful) feedback and hints and tips from
you guys on both these aspects of the rescue (incidentally my technique
using the above methods is fine - it is strength that is lacking).

Here's a trick you might try. After the victim has capsized tell them to
turn their boat back upright and hold on to it. Paddle up to it and grab
onto the bow. Then have them work their way to your boat and around the
stern (or preferably the bow where you can watch them) to the other side of
your boat. Position the bow of their boat just in front of your cockpit.
When they're along side your boat have them reach across and grab the bow
loop on their boat, put both feet on the side of your boat and lean back.
That will pull their boat across the foredeck of your boat. At that point
you have a very large outrigger so you should be able to turn the boat over
and continue to slide the boat over until the water drains from the cockpit.
Rotate the boat away from back upright and slide it back into the water
(don't let go of the deck lines). Have them work their way back around and
reenter as you normally do.

One final comment. You don't have to completely empty their boat before you
them reenter. If the water is cold the primary goal is to get them out of
the water. Worry about pumping the water out later. If you're in really
dicey conditions you may want to just have them turn their boat over so that
you can clip on a tow line and have them lie on your rear deck until you've
paddled to a spot where a reaentry will be easier. There are a couple of
good books on Sea Kayak rescues out there. Amazon.com has got them.

Thanks for all your help

John Fereira typed:

[lotsa good advice]


And finally (without questioning the wisdom of the whole operaton --
putting novices in ill-equipped boats in potentially fatal conditions)
I wonder why you cannot use one or two of the other students, who are
still IN their boats, to help.

Yeh, sure they are all novice boaters, but typically one or more of
them will be competant and confidant in physical activities, won't
they? Have yer two most confident and stable students raft up, get one
end of the victim boat up on their raft, and then you can paddle about
that assemblage to do whatever must be done.

But the easiest highly effective solution, if you are working without
spraydecks, is to just two- or three-centimeter (diameter) drain
*holes* through the top deck at each end. Then you don't have to lift
all that weight of water at one time to shift it toward the cockpit;
just lift the downhill end a few millimeters at a time; as long as you
lift the interior waterlevel a hair above the exterior waterlevel, it
will drain.

'Course, if these are multi-use boats which are sometimes used with
speardecks, you will need to install drainplugs rather than just drill
holes. But for yer novice classes, when you must, you can easily reach
beneath a capsized boat to open the plug.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Never thought of using the drain plug (hangs head in shame). Not sure I
could actually get the drain plug clear of the water, but hell I'll
give it a try

ChipsCheeseandMayo wrote:

Never thought of using the drain plug (hangs head in shame). Not sure I
could actually get the drain plug clear of the water, but hell I'll
give it a try

You don't need to. :-)

If a swamped boat is in the water, reach under water and open the drain
plug. Lifting the boat out of the water slowly, starting at the end
opposite to the drain hole will cause the water to pour out through the
hole anyway, even if you can't lift it completely out of the water so
that the drain plug clears the water.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/