On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:41:03 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


I'm simply helping him understand laws he is 100% unfamiliar with. The same
laws I've become 100% familiar with in order to enjoy the simple pleasure of
a vegetable garden in the midst of a few neighbors who don't care.


How do you manage that, when you've stated not that long ago, that you
live in an apartment complex?

Dave

Doug Kanter wrote:

If it were me, I'd invite the neighbor over, shove his face in the
pile of poop, and explain to him that he should review his will at least
every few months to be sure it's up to date, if he intends to continue his
antisocial behavior.

This is the type of response which was expected of you.


I don't expect you to understand this. I grew up in Queens. Who the hell
knows where you grew up.

Oh, I understand. You're a ticking time bomb. You are the left-wing
liberal counterpart to the angry- at-society skin-head.

-- Charlie

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:41:03 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:



I'm simply helping him understand laws he is 100% unfamiliar with. The same
laws I've become 100% familiar with in order to enjoy the simple pleasure of
a vegetable garden in the midst of a few neighbors who don't care.


Well, I can remember a case that I saw on one of those TV court shows
(I know, not the best forum) where a neighbor had problems with a cat
or dog tearing up their garden, and after finally having enough, set
out some rat poison. The neighbor's pet ate it and died. The pet
owner figured out what happened and sued the "killer" and was awarded
damages for her loss.

The laws you referenced were put into place to cover wild animals
destroying commercial crops, not domestic pets invading a vegetable
garden. In an earlier post, you remarked about the intrinsic "value"
of crops versus that of destructive animals as some sort of
justification for killing them. In the case of wild animals, the
"value" of commercial crops would seem to exceed the "value" of
rabbits, deer, or other indigenous wildlife. But pets are another
matter. People place a high "value" on their pets, and as such, they
are not as arbitrary and subject to the same considerations WRT
intrinsic value versus a wild animal.

Do you have a right to kill a wild rabbit who invades your garden?
What if it was your neighbor's prized poodle? What if it was the
neighbor's kid? Where do you draw the line? I'm curious to hear your
justification.

Dave
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj

What you said was "....The *law* says that if you touch my stuff, I am
required to shoot your
stupid ass in the face. Get it?"

What the law really says is you can not use deadly force unless a reasonable
man would feel in danger of his life. If you shot someone because they
touched your stuff, you would be charged with murder.



"Don" wrote in message
...
John, you better straighten up your act or you will be sent to the corner
for contemplation.
Where in my single sentence below did I mention dogs?

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:vr%hc.5371$YP5.524839@attbi_s02...
Don,
Again, I am confused, are you saying if your neighbors dog takes a crap
in
your lawn, you are required by law to shot him in the face?


"Don" wrote in message
...
"Henry Blackmoore" wrote
Show me where the laws in a suburban area in this country have been
interpreted to allow a homeowner to hide under the guise of growing
"food
crops" while killing his neighbors dog or cats? Garden be damned.

The *law* says that if you touch my stuff, I am required to shoot your
stupid ass in the face. Get it?

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:25:49 -0400, "Don"
wrote:

"Henry Blackmoore" wrote
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
Actually, it's legally permitted, performed and tested in the courts on a
fairly regular basis. In many places, including what you'd consider
"normal
suburbs", animals which damage food crops may be killed as long as the
method does not endanger neighbors or violate weapons laws. You really
ought
to think before you hurl, boy.

Uh-huh. And you think that somebody's garden comes under the "food crop"
definition and that you have the right to kill your neighbor's pets for a
damaged tomato plant?

Can I come into your house and eat all your food, drink all your beer,
fondle your 13 yo daughters nubbins, issue you a matched pair of knuckle
sandwiches and take your DVD player on the way out the door?
If you choose to use MY personal property for YOUR use, YOU open yourself up
to that same behavior.
Doesn't anyone know how to *think* anymore?



Perhaps you need to measure your response to the situation. A damaged
flower is not the same as a break-in, theft, sexual assault etc.
Lethal force is justified in cases of imminent threat, but not for
lesser infractions.

Perhaps you need to surround your garden with a fence. Killing a pet
is an excessive response, and shows a general irresponsibility and
reckless disregard for other people's rights. There are other
effective (and legal) ways of dealing with a situation like this.

IMHO, people who can easily justify the killing of an animal for such
petty "crimes", is only one step away from using that same mindset
against humans as well. Psychological studies show that most serial
killers started out torturing animals. So maybe the ticking time bomb
analogy is not so far off the mark.......

Dave

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 03:49:07 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Cd%hc.16820$GR.2456214@attbi_s01...
Don,
I am having a hard time following this conversation, but from what I can
tell you are saying that a dog taking a crap on your lawn is the same as
being a child molester. Did I miss something?

This is simple, John. Based on actual experience:

I'm working in the garden. I have 3 neighbors with little target dogs, like
dachshunds. I cut my lawn correctly in the summer, which means 3-4". The
target dogs' turds are small enough to fall beneath the level of the grass.
I step in it. I'm preoccupied with gardening. I am entitled to focus only on
the thing I enjoy, rather than having to watch every step I take. I step in
the turds, and run into the house for a drink of water, and maybe to use the
bathroom. Now, there's turd on my carpet. I have to stop what I'm doing and
rent a rug shampooer.

A simple stiff brush, a spray bottle of Oxy-Clean, some paper towels
and 5 minutes later, it's done. I've cleaned up my share of "messes"
before. It's not such a big deal.



Not only does the machine cost money, but the dog owner has stolen 3-4 hours
of my precious time. If I apply my working rate to my weekend hours, that
time is worth between $500 and $10,000.00. The dog owner has stolen that
from me.

An extreme exaggeration meant, no doubt, to attach some sort of
inflated value to your time, and to somehow justify your draconian
response. Killing a dog for getting a little poop on your carpet? You
really are in need of some counseling. But find a good shrink.


Get it? Stealing. Why? So the dog owner can keep his fat ass on the sofa
watching football, rather than tie the dog up in his own backyard and clean
the turds out of his damned lawn.

I leave the turds in mine. They make good fertilizer. The grass is the
greenest where the dog goes. And yes, I tie the dog out.


Calling the dog catcher a dozen times
achieved nothing. "Duh...I have to actually witness the dog running loose
before I can do anything about it".

And this justifies your vigilante justice?


This is why one dog on my street
actually vanished about 15 years ago. Sort of like Jimmy Hoffa.

I'm proud of you. Doug Kanter, Canine hit-man.



My property, my garden, my time, my money. No different than if you did a
gorgeous job of painting your house and I came along with a painball gun and
redecorated it for you. Get it? Same exact thing.

Not the same thing. There's that little thing called malicious intent.
How about if you painted your house, and a flock of migrating geese
decided to bomb it? Would you shoot all geese?


Put up a fence.


Dave

I have no idea if it is legal to shot a dog because he comes into your
garden, but I know I could never kill a dog for that reason. If a dog was
running free and crapping in my garden I would call animal control and have
the dog picked up. If the neighbor was being unreasonable and was not
honoring my request to keep his animal off of my property, I would file a
suit with small claims court.

I can't believe that two people in this small group, would advocate killing
a defense animal due to their neighbors neglect.

Yours and Don's statements say more about who you are, than anything I or
anyone else could say.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Don" wrote in message
...

Doug,
You don't have to go defensive over erroneous claims.
Henry has no more say over your property than you do over his.
Just smear his nose in his own **** and move on.



I'm simply helping him understand laws he is 100% unfamiliar with. The
same
laws I've become 100% familiar with in order to enjoy the simple
pleasure
of
a vegetable garden in the midst of a few neighbors who don't care.

sigh
It's not your job to educate morons, though you may choose to do so for
hobby.
The *law* has nothing to do with it.
We're talking about *morality* here.
If Blackmoore chooses to act immorally and infringe on your *natural*
rights, you just plug him and turn him into fertilizer.
There are way too many Blackmoores running loose anyway.



Morality, yes. But, in some cases, the law reflects basic moral issues
which
continue to be important to people. Henry has apparently created nothing
worth preserving, therefore he is having extreme difficulty grasping this
issue. Fortunately, the courts do NOT share this handicap. Henry should
invite his lawyer to dinner and request an education. Better yet, he
should
head to his town/city hall and spend an afternoon browsing through his
local
laws. It'll be a real eye opener.

Don, I am not reacting emotional, it appears that you are, based upon your
experience with a bad neighbor. I hate to tell you this, but if someone
damages your property, you have neither the moral or the legal justification
to damage your neighbors property. You have the right to file a report with
the police and to take them to court.


"Don" wrote in message
...
Geezis, what the hell is going on around here?
I said that if you choose to use MY stuff to YOUR benefit than I have the
moral equivilent to do the same.
John, PLEASE think these things through before reacting emotionally.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Cd%hc.16820$GR.2456214@attbi_s01...
Don,
I am having a hard time following this conversation, but from what I can
tell you are saying that a dog taking a crap on your lawn is the same as
being a child molester. Did I miss something?


"Don" wrote in message
...
"Henry Blackmoore" wrote
"Doug Kanter" wrote:
Actually, it's legally permitted, performed and tested in the
courts
on
a
fairly regular basis. In many places, including what you'd consider
"normal
suburbs", animals which damage food crops may be killed as long as
the
method does not endanger neighbors or violate weapons laws. You
really
ought
to think before you hurl, boy.

Uh-huh. And you think that somebody's garden comes under the "food
crop"
definition and that you have the right to kill your neighbor's pets
for
a
damaged tomato plant?

Can I come into your house and eat all your food, drink all your beer,
fondle your 13 yo daughters nubbins, issue you a matched pair of
knuckle
sandwiches and take your DVD player on the way out the door?
If you choose to use MY personal property for YOUR use, YOU open
yourself
up
to that same behavior.
Doesn't anyone know how to *think* anymore?

I was wondering if Doug was as out of control as you were. I completely
agree that you should treat your neighbor as you would like to be treated.
What you fail to realize is you do not have the right to break the law, by
damaging or taking your neighbors property, in retaliation to his breaking
the law. While many people in here disagree, you are the only person in
rec.boats who scares me. I can not believe anyone would say "If you abuse
that one simple rule (the Golden Rule), you must pay a severe consequence".

I think you might benefit from some anger management counseling.

"Don" wrote in message
...
What the **** is it with you John?
What the hell difference does it make if Doug agrees with me?
Don't you have a brain of your own?
Don't you have a backbone?
We're not talking rocket surgery here, just very simple basics.
Most kids are taught these things at about age 5, how old are you?
Here, I'll spell it out for you:
*Treat other people as you want to be treated.*
There, is that simple enough?
If you abuse that one simple rule of humanity you may pay a severe
consequence.
Don't let your dog **** in my yard, don't paintball my house, don't fondle
my daughter, etc.
In turn I won't do those things to you.
Does any of this make sense to you?



"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Fw0ic.5465$cF6.293888@attbi_s04...
Doug,

So you do agree with Don that a person who allows a dog to crap on your
lawn, is the same thing as your neighbor coming over to your house and
sexually molesting your daughter?

Do you also agree with Don, that the law requires you to shot the person
in
the face if their dog craps in your lawn?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:Cd%hc.16820$GR.2456214@attbi_s01...
Don,
I am having a hard time following this conversation, but from what I
can
tell you are saying that a dog taking a crap on your lawn is the
same
as
being a child molester. Did I miss something?

This is simple, John. Based on actual experience:

I'm working in the garden. I have 3 neighbors with little target dogs,
like
dachshunds. I cut my lawn correctly in the summer, which means 3-4".
The
target dogs' turds are small enough to fall beneath the level of the
grass.
I step in it. I'm preoccupied with gardening. I am entitled to focus
only
on
the thing I enjoy, rather than having to watch every step I take. I
step
in
the turds, and run into the house for a drink of water, and maybe to
use
the
bathroom. Now, there's turd on my carpet. I have to stop what I'm
doing
and
rent a rug shampooer.

Not only does the machine cost money, but the dog owner has stolen 3-4
hours
of my precious time. If I apply my working rate to my weekend hours,
that
time is worth between $500 and $10,000.00. The dog owner has stolen
that
from me.

Get it? Stealing. Why? So the dog owner can keep his fat ass on the
sofa
watching football, rather than tie the dog up in his own backyard and
clean
the turds out of his damned lawn. Calling the dog catcher a dozen
times
achieved nothing. "Duh...I have to actually witness the dog running
loose
before I can do anything about it". This is why one dog on my street
actually vanished about 15 years ago. Sort of like Jimmy Hoffa.

My property, my garden, my time, my money. No different than if you
did
a
gorgeous job of painting your house and I came along with a painball
gun
and
redecorated it for you. Get it? Same exact thing.

"Charles" wrote in message
...


Doug Kanter wrote:

If it were me, I'd invite the neighbor over, shove his face in the
pile of poop, and explain to him that he should review his will at least
every few months to be sure it's up to date, if he intends to continue
his
antisocial behavior.

This is the type of response which was expected of you.


I don't expect you to understand this. I grew up in Queens. Who the hell
knows where you grew up.

Oh, I understand. You're a ticking time bomb. You are the left-wing
liberal counterpart to the angry- at-society skin-head.

-- Charlie

Gotta separate things into categories to help you:

1) Because I agree with Harry on a few things, I'm a liberal?

2) Actually, due to a couple of letters I wrote to a local paper, the
Libertarians are courting me. If you knew anything about the labels you use,
you'd understand this.