Scott Weiser wrote:

A Usenet persona calling itself Frederick Burroughs wrote:


BCITORGB wrote:


Scott cites:
=============
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,
=============

And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay?


My son and I are covered by a group insurance plan provided by my
employer, of which my employer pays 1/3. My wife is covered by her
employee insurance plan, which suddenly increased by 25%. She shopped
around for personal coverage, and inquired about coverage for the
entire family. Every insurance company she asked said they wouldn't
cover me (diabetes). She chose a BIG health insurance company for
herself, but they doubled her premiums when they found out she was
taking lipitor (statin for cholesterol). Our monthly health insurance
payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us,
health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in. Oh, we live in the good-ol U.S. of A.


Wah.

I can't get health insurance either (for the same reason as you) and had to
give up my company health insurance after the COBRA period expired because I
couldn't afford (nor could I justify) the $385 per month in premiums plus
the $200+ per month in prescription co-pays. So what? Big deal. It's my
life, and my responsibility. If I get sick, either I come up with a way to
pay for it, or I die. My choice. I don't blame the government, nor do I
expect the government to bail me out or take care of me. Doing so is just
socialistic whining. People have to take responsibility for themselves, and
sometimes you die. Suck it up and accept that funding your health care (not
to mention your retirement) is your responsibility, not the government's.

Like I have, you need to figure out how to save for a medical emergency and
not try to foist your inability to budget and save off on everyone else.

Perhaps you could forego that new playboat and SUV, drive a ten-year-old
car, cut back on the beer and cigarette allotment, wear last season's
clothes and quit going to the movies and put that money aside into an
interest-bearing savings account for emergencies. Or, you could get a
catastrophic health care policy with a large (like $10,000) deductible that
costs far less each month and forego the "convienence medicine" premium
inherent in HMO coverage and put the balance of what you're paying now into
a savings account to pay, in cash, for minor medical issues. It's entirely
up to you, but nobody said it was going to be easy.

The good news is that *I* don't have to pay for *your* health care problems
like they do in Canada. That's good, because I see no reason on earth why I
should be required to do so.


You make a whole lot of typically incorrect assumptions. No one in my
family smokes, or drinks in excess of healthy moderation. Our newest
car is 5 years old. My canoe and kayak were bought having recreation
and exercise equally in mind.

As you know, exercise is especially important for diabetics. Along
with hiking up and down the mountains around our home, I paddle. There
are two wonderful rivers just a 10 minute's drive, and paddling is a
quick, enjoyable, effective and addictive form of exercise. Hell, I
don't even know I'm exercising except for slightly sore muscles at the
end of the day. I will also utilize the kayak to fish. If I limit my
fish take to the river free of mercury & pcb pollution, and to the
local ponds, these will be a healthy addition to my diet. (Thanks to
government monitoring for alerting the public to this health concern.)

If I was healthy, and lived alone in the woods, and didn't give a ****
about others, your health care suggestion might be an option worth
consideration. However, family obligations and demanding health
conditions make insurance the prudent choice. There are others besides
myself involved in the calculations.

Also, I'm happy that a small percentage of my local and state taxes go
to support our local hospital, and supply our local emergency medical
volunteers, and help to distribute vaccines and medicines to the
community. Bizarre that any one would object to the socialization of
health care since much of it works and is already based on a
socialized, community-based model.


--
"This president has destroyed the country, the economy,
the relationship with the rest of the world.
He's a monster in the White House. He should resign."

- Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003.

A Usenet persona calling itself Frederick Burroughs wrote:

Scott Weiser wrote:

A Usenet persona calling itself Frederick Burroughs wrote:


BCITORGB wrote:


Scott cites:
=============
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,
=============

And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay?


My son and I are covered by a group insurance plan provided by my
employer, of which my employer pays 1/3. My wife is covered by her
employee insurance plan, which suddenly increased by 25%. She shopped
around for personal coverage, and inquired about coverage for the
entire family. Every insurance company she asked said they wouldn't
cover me (diabetes). She chose a BIG health insurance company for
herself, but they doubled her premiums when they found out she was
taking lipitor (statin for cholesterol). Our monthly health insurance
payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us,
health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in. Oh, we live in the good-ol U.S. of A.


Wah.

I can't get health insurance either (for the same reason as you) and had to
give up my company health insurance after the COBRA period expired because I
couldn't afford (nor could I justify) the $385 per month in premiums plus
the $200+ per month in prescription co-pays. So what? Big deal. It's my
life, and my responsibility. If I get sick, either I come up with a way to
pay for it, or I die. My choice. I don't blame the government, nor do I
expect the government to bail me out or take care of me. Doing so is just
socialistic whining. People have to take responsibility for themselves, and
sometimes you die. Suck it up and accept that funding your health care (not
to mention your retirement) is your responsibility, not the government's.

Like I have, you need to figure out how to save for a medical emergency and
not try to foist your inability to budget and save off on everyone else.

Perhaps you could forego that new playboat and SUV, drive a ten-year-old
car, cut back on the beer and cigarette allotment, wear last season's
clothes and quit going to the movies and put that money aside into an
interest-bearing savings account for emergencies. Or, you could get a
catastrophic health care policy with a large (like $10,000) deductible that
costs far less each month and forego the "convienence medicine" premium
inherent in HMO coverage and put the balance of what you're paying now into
a savings account to pay, in cash, for minor medical issues. It's entirely
up to you, but nobody said it was going to be easy.

The good news is that *I* don't have to pay for *your* health care problems
like they do in Canada. That's good, because I see no reason on earth why I
should be required to do so.


You make a whole lot of typically incorrect assumptions. No one in my
family smokes, or drinks in excess of healthy moderation.

I was being allegorical, not literal.

Our newest
car is 5 years old. My canoe and kayak were bought having recreation
and exercise equally in mind.

As you know, exercise is especially important for diabetics. Along
with hiking up and down the mountains around our home, I paddle. There
are two wonderful rivers just a 10 minute's drive, and paddling is a
quick, enjoyable, effective and addictive form of exercise. Hell, I
don't even know I'm exercising except for slightly sore muscles at the
end of the day. I will also utilize the kayak to fish. If I limit my
fish take to the river free of mercury & pcb pollution, and to the
local ponds, these will be a healthy addition to my diet. (Thanks to
government monitoring for alerting the public to this health concern.)

There's no need to justify your lifestyle. I wasn't intending to actually
impugn your lifestyle, I merely wished to make a general point about
personal responsibility.


If I was healthy, and lived alone in the woods, and didn't give a ****
about others, your health care suggestion might be an option worth
consideration. However, family obligations and demanding health
conditions make insurance the prudent choice. There are others besides
myself involved in the calculations.

I understand the analysis, and I don't disagree with your conclusions,
however, the point remains that such planning is YOUR responsibility, as is
the responsibility of paying for it. It's not MY responsibility (in the
abstract sense) to help you fund your medical insurance needs, nor should
the government act as your proxy in extracting such funding.


Also, I'm happy that a small percentage of my local and state taxes go
to support our local hospital, and supply our local emergency medical
volunteers, and help to distribute vaccines and medicines to the
community.

And you are perfectly free to be happy. You're free to gladly pay those
taxes. You can even give the government MORE than you "owe" in taxes or
direct donations to your local hospital. There's nothing at all wrong with
that. But it's immoral of you to demand that ANYONE ELSE do the same,
particularly when the Mace of State is used to enforce compliance.

Bizarre that any one would object to the socialization of
health care since much of it works and is already based on a
socialized, community-based model.

It's coercive socialism, no matter how you look at it. Coercive socialism is
evil. Profoundly, ineluctably evil in its every manifestation, no matter how
glossily covered, prettily dressed up or facilely excused. It always and
inevitably ends in oppression, tyranny and terror.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
...It's coercive socialism, no matter how you look at it. Coercive
socialism is
evil. Profoundly, ineluctably evil in its every manifestation, no matter
how
glossily covered, prettily dressed up or facilely excused. It always and
inevitably ends in oppression, tyranny and terror.

As good an argument for refusing the services of firefighters as one could
ever hope to encounter.

Wolfgang
who never did like those oppressive tyrannical terrorists.

A Usenet persona calling itself Wolfgang wrote:


"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
...It's coercive socialism, no matter how you look at it. Coercive
socialism is
evil. Profoundly, ineluctably evil in its every manifestation, no matter
how
glossily covered, prettily dressed up or facilely excused. It always and
inevitably ends in oppression, tyranny and terror.

As good an argument for refusing the services of firefighters as one could
ever hope to encounter.

Well, not quite. Firefighting falls under the general heading of services
made necessary by the concept of "exported harm."

Because there is always a danger that a fire on one person's property can
(and often does) spread to other property, and because no individual
property owner is adequately prepared to deal with a fire once it's out of
control, it is reasonable for government to provide skilled and equipped
resources at public expense to prevent exported harm, and it's also
reasonable for government to spread the costs of such specialized training
and equipment over all of those who contribute to the risks involved. This
is the same rational for taxes for military spending.

The link between the harm of uncontrolled fire and the extraction of money
from the public is quite direct, and the risks are shared by all persons in
the community equally because everyone is placed at risk by an uncontrolled
fire.

On the other hand, the link between one's private health care issues and
some sort of overall public harm is extremely tenuous at best, and doesn't
justify the forcible extraction of money from everyone in order to provide
health care for some. The risks are not equal.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
A Usenet persona calling itself Wolfgang wrote:


"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
...It's coercive socialism, no matter how you look at it. Coercive
socialism is
evil. Profoundly, ineluctably evil in its every manifestation, no matter
how
glossily covered, prettily dressed up or facilely excused. It always and
inevitably ends in oppression, tyranny and terror.

As good an argument for refusing the services of firefighters as one
could
ever hope to encounter.

Well, not quite. Firefighting falls under the general heading of services
made necessary by the concept of "exported harm."

Because there is always a danger that a fire on one person's property can
(and often does) spread to other property, and because no individual
property owner is adequately prepared to deal with a fire once it's out of
control, it is reasonable for government to provide skilled and equipped
resources at public expense to prevent exported harm, and it's also
reasonable for government to spread the costs of such specialized training
and equipment over all of those who contribute to the risks involved. This
is the same rational for taxes for military spending.

The link between the harm of uncontrolled fire and the extraction of money
from the public is quite direct, and the risks are shared by all persons
in
the community equally because everyone is placed at risk by an
uncontrolled
fire.

On the other hand, the link between one's private health care issues and
some sort of overall public harm is extremely tenuous at best, and doesn't
justify the forcible extraction of money from everyone in order to provide
health care for some. The risks are not equal.

Cholera is private? Diphtheria? Malaria? Dysentery? Influenza? Typhus?
Typhoid? HIV? Syphilis?

How much risk does a burning farmhouse in the middle of a section of wheat
or corn represent to the body politic? Is this not a private home care
issue?

How about municipal water treatment? Where is the "exported harm" in
allowing anyone who wants it to drink polluted water?

Stupid as you are, you've missed the one bit of equity hidden in all your
twaddle. The rest of the world cares every bit as much about your wellbeing
as you do about theirs.

Wolfgang
who, deriving a great deal of satisfaction from annoying one nitwit at a
time, cannot understand why anyone would go to all the trouble inherent in
wholesale.

A Usenet persona calling itself Wolfgang wrote:


"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
A Usenet persona calling itself Wolfgang wrote:


"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
...It's coercive socialism, no matter how you look at it. Coercive
socialism is
evil. Profoundly, ineluctably evil in its every manifestation, no matter
how
glossily covered, prettily dressed up or facilely excused. It always and
inevitably ends in oppression, tyranny and terror.

As good an argument for refusing the services of firefighters as one
could
ever hope to encounter.

Well, not quite. Firefighting falls under the general heading of services
made necessary by the concept of "exported harm."

Because there is always a danger that a fire on one person's property can
(and often does) spread to other property, and because no individual
property owner is adequately prepared to deal with a fire once it's out of
control, it is reasonable for government to provide skilled and equipped
resources at public expense to prevent exported harm, and it's also
reasonable for government to spread the costs of such specialized training
and equipment over all of those who contribute to the risks involved. This
is the same rational for taxes for military spending.

The link between the harm of uncontrolled fire and the extraction of money
from the public is quite direct, and the risks are shared by all persons
in
the community equally because everyone is placed at risk by an
uncontrolled
fire.

On the other hand, the link between one's private health care issues and
some sort of overall public harm is extremely tenuous at best, and doesn't
justify the forcible extraction of money from everyone in order to provide
health care for some. The risks are not equal.

Cholera is private? Diphtheria? Malaria? Dysentery? Influenza? Typhus?
Typhoid? HIV? Syphilis?

Excellent questions all, and the answer is "no, they are not."
That's why public health efforts funded by involuntary taxation to prevent
and control such outbreaks are perfectly acceptable. All people are placed
at risk by this exported harm, all people pose a risk of transmission
(exportation) of this harm, thus all people may be required to pay to
prevent it and may be compelled to be innoculated and/or isolated as
necessary to prevent the spread of such diseases. That's one of the
contracts people agree to when they live together.

However, diabetes, broken ankles and heart disease are not a public health
threats, which means that the government has no call to impose the costs of
treating such individual illnesses on others, because there is no exported
harm that justifies imposing this burden on others.


How much risk does a burning farmhouse in the middle of a section of wheat
or corn represent to the body politic?

Rather a lot, actually, something you'd know if you lived on a farm. Range
fires kill more firefighters every year than forest fires do.

But the point is that fires don't just occur in farmhouses in the sticks.
Municipal fire companies were originally set up in this country because of
severe problems with urban fires and the ineffectiveness of "subscription"
based volunteer brigades in places like New York and Chicago. More harm was
exported by the Great Chicago Fire than has ever been exported by all forest
fires combined since 1700.

Is this not a private home care
issue?

No, it's not. Now, whether or not the farmhouse owner chooses to demolish
(or build) his house with his tractor is not an issue of exported harm, and
therefore the government has no reason to interfere.

How about municipal water treatment? Where is the "exported harm" in
allowing anyone who wants it to drink polluted water?

The same reasons you cite above: Cholera, Diptheria, etc. Again, it's a
public health issue. Contaminated water can spread disease. The same is true
of municipal sewage systems. Treating effluent is done to eliminate the
public health threat inherent in untreated sewage. All members of the
community contribute to the sewage and consume the water, and thus all
members can be legitimately required to share in the economic burdens
involved in keeping both sanitary.

But now we come to the question of when are water quality treatment
standards legitimate and when are they illegitimate?

Standards that water be non-infective are appropriate because of the risk of
exported harm through disease outbreaks.

Standards that control contamination that is NOT contagious, such as lead or
arsenic are NOT legitimate, at least insofar as being imposed as an unfunded
mandate by the federal government, because, provided citizens have adequate
notice, they can choose not to drink the water and thus not be exposed to
the hazard that only harms those who consume the water.

Certainly citizens are entitled to KNOW what the quality of their water is,
and whether harmful chemicals or substances are in the water, and in what
quantity, but beyond that, it becomes a matter of individual assumed risk,
not a matter for federal interference in local water provider policy and
practice. If people want to drink pesticide-laced water, that's their right.

The classic case is the Clinton Administration's charade of lowering the
federal standard for acceptable levels of arsenic in water just before
Clinton left office, purely in order to hand Bush a "hot potato" that was
factually unnecessary and factually imposed a crippling financial burden on
tens of thousands of rural water system operators for no credible reason.

Arsenic levels were set properly before, and there was no objective evidence
of a risk of exported harm that justified changing them.

Stupid as you are, you've missed the one bit of equity hidden in all your
twaddle. The rest of the world cares every bit as much about your wellbeing
as you do about theirs.

So what? I didn't ask them to care for me, nor do I accept their "caring" if
financial strings are attached. The "rest of the world" cannot decide it
"cares" about me and then force me to pay for their "caring" if I don't want
their help.


Wolfgang
who, deriving a great deal of satisfaction from annoying one nitwit at a
time, cannot understand why anyone would go to all the trouble inherent in
wholesale.

Economies of scale and viral replication theory.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

However, diabetes, broken ankles and heart disease are not a public health
threats, which means that the government has no call to impose the costs
of
treating such individual illnesses on others, because there is no exported
harm that justifies imposing this burden on others.


You don't think so? There are many ways that society pays the price for
illness beyond the obvious issues of contagion and health care costs. The
economic costs of so many Americans sitting at home because they're sick or
injured is astronomical when you consider things like lost productivity,
overinflated payrolls forced upon employers (which transfer those costs to
consumers), etc. When you're a small business owner and your employees are
home sick instead of working, you lose money. So does the national economy.
It's been a long time since I've seen estimates of the figures, but they're
enormous.

Scott thinks:
===============
The link between the harm of uncontrolled fire and the extraction of
money
from the public is quite direct, and the risks are shared by all
persons in
the community equally because everyone is placed at risk by an
uncontrolled
fire.

On the other hand, the link between one's private health care issues
and
some sort of overall public harm is extremely tenuous at best, and
doesn't
justify the forcible extraction of money from everyone in order to
provide
health care for some. The risks are not equal
=================


United States spends about $35 billion per year to provide uninsured
residents with medical care, often for preventable diseases or diseases
that physicians could treat more efficiently with earlier diagnosis
(Bloombert/Hartford Courant, 18 June 2003: "Hidden Costs, Value Lost:
Uninsurance in America"

"Earlier diagnosis"! What a unique concept. No! Wait! I believe it's
one of those socialist (and Canadian) concepts.

Even if we accept your lack of "overall harm" thesis (which I don't --
see Wolfgang's response to you), perhaps you'll be moved by the extent
to which this affects your pocketbook....

frtzw906

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Scott thinks:
===============
The link between the harm of uncontrolled fire and the extraction of
money
from the public is quite direct, and the risks are shared by all
persons in
the community equally because everyone is placed at risk by an
uncontrolled
fire.

Nonsense Scott!

I have my own firefighting equipment and can protect my own property and I'd
never be responsible for starting an uncontrolled fire! Why should I have to
pay because people like you are careless and can't take care of their own
property!

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Scott thinks:
===============
The link between the harm of uncontrolled fire and the extraction of
money
from the public is quite direct, and the risks are shared by all
persons in
the community equally because everyone is placed at risk by an
uncontrolled
fire.

Nonsense Scott!

I have my own firefighting equipment and can protect my own property and I'd
never be responsible for starting an uncontrolled fire! Why should I have to
pay because people like you are careless and can't take care of their own
property!

I do too. Several thousands of dollars worth, in fact. However, most people
don't, and don't have the skills required to effectively fight a fire even
if they do. Also, they may not be around when a fire starts and therefore
will not be able to douse the fire before others are harmed.

Thus, it is reasonable and prudent to maintain a cadre of properly trained
and equipped personnel at public expense.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser