A Usenet persona calling itself Frederick Burroughs wrote:

BCITORGB wrote:

Scott cites:
=============
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,
=============

And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay?


My son and I are covered by a group insurance plan provided by my
employer, of which my employer pays 1/3. My wife is covered by her
employee insurance plan, which suddenly increased by 25%. She shopped
around for personal coverage, and inquired about coverage for the
entire family. Every insurance company she asked said they wouldn't
cover me (diabetes). She chose a BIG health insurance company for
herself, but they doubled her premiums when they found out she was
taking lipitor (statin for cholesterol). Our monthly health insurance
payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us,
health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in. Oh, we live in the good-ol U.S. of A.

Wah.

I can't get health insurance either (for the same reason as you) and had to
give up my company health insurance after the COBRA period expired because I
couldn't afford (nor could I justify) the $385 per month in premiums plus
the $200+ per month in prescription co-pays. So what? Big deal. It's my
life, and my responsibility. If I get sick, either I come up with a way to
pay for it, or I die. My choice. I don't blame the government, nor do I
expect the government to bail me out or take care of me. Doing so is just
socialistic whining. People have to take responsibility for themselves, and
sometimes you die. Suck it up and accept that funding your health care (not
to mention your retirement) is your responsibility, not the government's.

Like I have, you need to figure out how to save for a medical emergency and
not try to foist your inability to budget and save off on everyone else.

Perhaps you could forego that new playboat and SUV, drive a ten-year-old
car, cut back on the beer and cigarette allotment, wear last season's
clothes and quit going to the movies and put that money aside into an
interest-bearing savings account for emergencies. Or, you could get a
catastrophic health care policy with a large (like $10,000) deductible that
costs far less each month and forego the "convienence medicine" premium
inherent in HMO coverage and put the balance of what you're paying now into
a savings account to pay, in cash, for minor medical issues. It's entirely
up to you, but nobody said it was going to be easy.

The good news is that *I* don't have to pay for *your* health care problems
like they do in Canada. That's good, because I see no reason on earth why I
should be required to do so.
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN, Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have had
admirable care. More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary procedure.

But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

I do. It sucks. So what? Nobody said life was easy or fair. Now I find a way
to pay for my own health care, I don't expect anyone else to pay for it in
my stead.


Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.

Don't bet on it. Government programs have a tendency to go bankrupt. Just as
the VA, and the people who try to get care from the VA who are "entitled" to
that care.


And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask why the
USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita, but is
unable to match Canada and most western European nations on issues such
as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a healthcare
scandal worth writing newspaper articles about.

Why? Infant mortality is nature's way of limiting populations.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

A Usenet persona calling itself Michael Daly wrote:

On 20-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get when
you need it. What a bargain!

Bull**** from weiser once again. He obviously can't read or think.

Take a pill, your blood pressure is spiking...


...and you can't buy supplemental insurance to protect yourself even if you
want to. Talk about your socialistic, egalitarian "share the pain"
bedfellows...Canada and North Korea don't care a fig if you, the individual,
suffers, they only care that everyone suffers together in comradely
communistic solidarity, while paying 48% of income for the privilege. Bleah.

More bull****. You can buy supplemental health insurance.

Nope, not for hospitalization or surgery.

It's sold by
many insurance companies. Maritime Life is one of the bigger players in
supplemental health insurance.

Funny, a credible AP reporter says Canadians are prohibited from buying
outside insurance for hospitalization and surgery. Canadians may be able to
buy supplemental insurance for outpatient services, but if you get *really*
sick, and need a hospital bed and surgery, you're ****ed.


Go back under your rock, weiser, we don't need any more of your
lies and BS on this newsgroup.

Er...make me.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
=============
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,

The author didn't say. However, the point is that *I* don't have to pay a
major portion of my income for *your* bad health habits.
That incentivizes me to stay healthy, since I know if I get
sick, I have to pay for it or die. In Canada, there's no impetus to care
for
onesself because if you get sick, the government pays for everything...by
taking from everyone else to cover your bad health.
That's wrong. Personal responsibility is the best way, always.
None of it matters a whit in a country that forbids a private individual
from obtaining private medical insurance
and forces them into the public
system. That's the essence of uncaring socialism.
I'll stick with the US system, thanks. At least here, I can get whatever
health care I need when I need it, without asking the permission of the
government.

What a MAROON!

Mark

A Usenet persona calling itself wrote:

This is not kayak related but here goes.
Last year I had a car crash. Totalled the car but the 3 kayaks on the
roof were unhurt.
Thank God . there was a Capella An NDK Exploere and a Sealution.

My neck faired not so well and I had a little concussion. I drove to
the hospital was looked at immediately and had a secondary assesment.
Since then I have had xrays and a couple of visits to my GP.
No cost to me.... ( taxes obviously )
The physio is an insurance thing but who cares, it needs done and If I
had the time it would be free. ( In Hospital take a ticket and wait. )
There was never an issue in whether or not I could pay.
I guess I am a commie.

Yup, because you expect everybody else to pay for your bad driving habits
and the expensive medical consequences. What if others don't want to pay for
it? Why should you have a right to expect them to do so?

I truly believe the folks in public housing ( oh
,, We don't have a large homeless problem in my community. ) will get
the same care. That is what reflects the values of my community.

Yeah, "take from everybody and give to me" values.

My father had some heart problems. He got help immediately.
He passed away but it was not from lack of expertise, availability or
hospital beds.

Most unfortunate. My father died from drinking himself to death, but he
never expected anyone else to pay for his mistakes and bad judgment.

In the end I believe we will be judged by how we treat the poorest in
society, not the wealthiest. I am pleased with Canada.

Fine by me, just don't try to export your socialism down here, we don't want
it.

Our military is not the most powerfull ( I would like to see it better
funded. ) But we have not fely a need to reach out and touch someone in
the way GW has.

And the reason you have a minimal military is because the US protects you,
just like it protected all of western Europe during the Cold War, which
freed you from having to spend more money on defense.

You're welcome...

Our medical system is fine.

Unless you're a teenager needing knee surgery...

All the best to you and yours.

Same to you. Enjoy your petard trip.


--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Weiser, puffing up his macho chest, blusters:
=================
If I get sick, either I come up with a way to
pay for it, or I die. My choice. I don't blame the government, nor do I
expect the government to bail me out or take care of me. Doing so is
just
socialistic whining. People have to take responsibility for themselves,
and
sometimes you die. Suck it up and accept that funding your health care
(not
to mention your retirement) is your responsibility, not the
government's.
================

But very CLEARLY, if you'd bothered to respond to ALL the data I
provided (not just the stuff convenient to you), you'd also realize
that, in your attitude lies the answer to lower life expectancies and
higher infant mortality rates in the USA. Very obviously, people in the
USA do NOT take responsibility for their health or, more likely, many
can't afford to.

Thank god there's not many like you up here!

frtzw906

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Michael says:
============
Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get
when
you need it. What a bargain!

Bull**** from weiser once again. He obviously can't read or think.
==============

Further, Weiser has difficulty with math... even using his figures, I
reckon that's 40% of 48%.... but, hey, that wouldn't sound as dramatic.

You're nitpicking. Forty percent is still a lot to pay for somebody else's
health care.

What a twit!

Wassamatta, I **** you off again?


But I just don't get the point of his post. He's living in paradise and
happy about it. And we're living with a system that we clearly like so
much that we voted (well, I didn't, but apparently many Canadians did)
Tommy Douglas the most important Canadian personage (living or dead),
on a TV poll. [Info for Scott: Tommy Douglas = father of Canadian
universal medicine]

Why does Scott worry about how much tax we pay?

I don't. If you want to pay 48% of your income, with 40% going to socialized
health care so that you're paying for everybody else's bad health even if
you don't need it, that's fine with me. My argument is merely that it's a
stupid system that I don¹t want to see exported to the US because people
refuse to look at the warts and failures of socialized medicine. You're
entitled to ride your own petard just as high as it pleases you to fly.

Debunking the deliberate avoidance of the failures of socialized medicine
helps to keep such idiotic ideas from taking root down here.

As far as I can tell,
Americans pay between 35% to 40% in taxes, depending on the state.
First, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it cost
much more money to govern 30+ million spread out over a huge country as
opposed to 300+ million spread over a merely big country.

Well, that's a particularly silly statement, given the fact that the vast
majority of your "huge country" is uninhabited and uninhabitable.

So likely our
tax bills ought to be somewhat higher. And look, on top of everything,
our guys throw in healthcare. What do the Yanks get thrown in?

Freedom.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
NB: Obviously there's enough for him to like about Canada to
want to keep on going there from Ohoho...
==================
Can you point me to a post where I ever said I didn't like
Canada? All I did was reply to a lie made last month.
I posted sites that backed up my assertion that they were lies.
No one else has posted anything to refute those sites. All I've
gotten is more lies. I never made any claims as to which
system is better, or which is worse. Any number of other posters
tried to make that the subject because they had nothing else.

I go to Canada often. My daughter goes to school there. One of
our main paddle partners is a Canadian orthopedic surgeon.
Another is an ex-NHL hockey player from Canada. A couple of
others that go off and on are current players, well, they would
be if there was a season...





:-)

Wilko

Wilko wrote:

Wilf, have a look he

http://www.bright.net/~retter/

HTH...

Wilko

BCITORGB wrote:

rick, can you not stay on-topic on the OT thread? Why do we
care what
KMAN said on another thread? Why not resume your "did too"
stance over
there...

You have yet to contribute anything that suggests a better
alternative
to the Canadian system. Can I assume you know of none?

Otherwise, whatever your contributions: BOOOORRRRRING!

frtzw906



--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o
t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the
limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"rick" wrote in message
k.net...

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
rick, can you not stay on-topic on the OT thread? Why do we
care what
KMAN said on another thread? Why not resume your "did too"
stance over
there...
========================
Because you ailed to stay on-topic of the off-topic post. You
are the one that mentioned the thead, and continued you 'side'
of it.
And, in case you failed to notice, I replied to kman after he
responded to me.

LOL. After I hit him first he hit me back and all I was doing
was hitting him back!
=======================
Fine, live with your delusions. I have the satisfaction of
knowing that you have recanted your lies.
Thanks or that little laugh...

A Usenet persona calling itself Frederick Burroughs wrote:

BCITORGB wrote:


But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.


I could lose my health insurance at any time. If I were to change
jobs, any potential new employer would have to weigh the added burden
of putting a diabetic on their insurance policy. Thus, my job options
become much more limited. My present employer could decide to drop
insurance coverage (this happened to my wife). As I said before, most
insurance companies would deny me coverage. (Cherry-picking is the
vernacular for this common practice.) I would be **** out of luck, not
to mention the burden placed on a family where dad has serious medical
issues and can't get insurance. The threat of loss of insurance is a
constant and pervasive source of worry for me, despite the sizable
contributions I have paid into it over the years.

That was your first mistake. Instead of paying for insurance, which is
pretty much like throwing money down the sewer, you should have been taking
that money and investing it, or saving it under your mattress for that
matter, for a "rainy day" medical emergency, and paying for minor stuff out
of pocket. You'd be way ahead of the game if you had done so. Health
insurance is a mug's game. It's a massive fraud perpetrated on the people
and the only thing is does is make the insurance companies and their
investors rich.

Figure out some time how much you've paid in premiums over time versus how
much medical care you've actually *needed* (not the "convenience healthcare"
where you go in because you've got the flu just so the doctor can tell you
to go home and tough it out) and figure out exactly how much you *really*
paid for your essential health care. It's way too much, I guarantee it.

What's more, if you are an average working Joe, it's a complete waste of
money because if you get *really* ill, and require emergency life-saving
care in the US, you will get it. You can't be turned down by any
federally-funded hospital if it's a matter of life and death.

Of course, piles aren't a life or death matter, so you may have to stick
with Preparation H rather than getting surgery, but that's your problem, not
mine or the rest of society's.

And lest you think I'm being callous, I'm in *exactly* the same position you
are. I don't have, and can't get health insurance. But I don't whine about
it, I just figure out how to pay for it myself while not expecting others to
pay my bills for me. Personal responsibility is a very liberating thing.

Quit worrying and get to work figuring out how to cut expenses and start
putting money aside for emergencies. Try a catastrophic health care plan
that excludes anything related to diabetes and has a high deductible. Such
plans are available at very reasonable costs. Of course, it does mean you
don't get to run to the doctor every time you or your kids get the sniffles.
But that's a good thing. It forces you to work hard at staying healthy (like
teaching your kids to wash their hands and keep their fingers out of their
noses) and it encourages you to save money.

Or, suck it up and die if necessary. It happens to all of us eventually
anyway, and you'll be making room for somebody else with better genetics.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser