Interesting story today in the Boulder Daily Camera about the Canadian
health care crisis. Page 4B.

It's by Beth Duff-Brown of the Associated Press.

"A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need
of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It
added: 'If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased,
please accept our sincere apologies.'"

The article says the patient wasn't dead, but this letter provides cold
comfort to those who obviously do die before they get medical care in
Canada, evidently in sufficient numbers to persuade health care workers to
apologize in advance.

"The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes
each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province
to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of
every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers
Federation."

Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get when
you need it. What a bargain!

"George Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became addicted to
painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery, and hsould
have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr. Jacques
Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were violated because
Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer him the option
of getting it privately."

And then there's this:

"But tell that to the hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff
for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would
have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament."

So much for the "I can get private health care whenever I want in Canada"
argument...

"[A]ccording to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada and North Korea
are the only countries with laws banning the purchase of insurance for
hospitalization or surgery."

....and you can't buy supplemental insurance to protect yourself even if you
want to. Talk about your socialistic, egalitarian "share the pain"
bedfellows...Canada and North Korea don't care a fig if you, the individual,
suffers, they only care that everyone suffers together in comradely
communistic solidarity, while paying 48% of income for the privilege. Bleah.

It also seems that the average wait time between referral and treatment has
risen from 9.3 days to 17.9 days since 1993.

What's more, the percentage of Canadians who had same-day access to a doctor
when sick or needing medical attention is the lowest (27%) of all when
compared to New Zealand (60%), Australia (54%), Britain (41%), and the
USA (33%).

And, Canada has the lowest ratio of practicing physicians per 1000 persons
(2.1) of all when compared to Italy (4.4), Belgium (3.9), France (3.3),
Australia (2.5), and the USA (2.4).

(Sources cited in the article: Fraser Institute; Organization for Economic
Cooperation and Development; The Commonwealth Fund: Bank of Canada.)

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott cites:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay?

But more to the point, it would be useful if you just put out the
comparative data, without an editorial, so that people could reac
decisions based on data alone.

Here's my source: Social and Cultural Planning Office, The Hague,
September 2004

NOTE: The SCP used primarily OECD and World Bank data.

Let's check out the data, and then reach a conclusion based on data,
shall we? In each category, Canada is mentioned first, then the USA (as
in, Canada vs USA).

Total current expenditure on health ca percentage of GDP, 2000: 8.5%
vs 13%
Total current health expenditure per capita, 2000: 2400=80 vs 4100=80
Out-patient expenditure as percentage of gdp: 2.7% vs 5.9%
In-patient expenditure as percentage of GDP: 2.8% vs 3.9%
Inpatient ca beds per 1000 inhabitants, 2000: 3.9 vs 9.8
Total health employment per 1000 inhabitants, 2001 (FTE): 37 vs 38
Physicians: number per 1000 inhabitants, 2001: 2.1 vs 2.8
Nurses: number per 1000 inhabitants, 2001: 9.8 vs 8.1
Inpatient ca admissions per 1000 inhabitants, 2000: 100 vs 125
Acute ca number of patient days per capita, 2000: 0.85 vs 0.68
Non-acute inpatient ca number of patient days per capita, 2000: 0.15
vs 2.25
Outpatient consultations of physicians: number per capita, 2001: 6.1 vs
6=2E0
General practitioners per 1000 inhabitants: 1.0 vs 0.8
Acute ca occupancy rate: 87% vs 68%
Number of consultations per practising physician, 2000: 3050 vs 2020
Life expectancy at birth, 2001: 80 vs 78
Healthy life expectancy: 70 vs 67.5
Infant mortality in deaths per 1000 live births, 2001: 5 vs 6.5
Health status index, 2001: 5.6 vs 4.7 (higher is better)
Cost-effectiveness of health care, 2001: Compare health status index
with expenditure per person (Canada wins)
Rankings of countries by type of health index -
*Health status index 2001: 8th vs 19th
*SCP composite index 2001: 13th vs 18th
*WHO composite - index 1997: 4th vs 12th

On some fairly critical factors such as life expectancy, healthy life
expectancy, infant mortality, and a variety of health indices, Canada
out-performs the USA. At substatially less expenditure.

So, Scott, instead of dealing in editorials from newpapers, why not
deal in real data. What do you make of this data?

frtzw906

Scott Weiser wrote:
Interesting story today in the Boulder Daily Camera about the
Canadian
health care crisis. Page 4B.

It's by Beth Duff-Brown of the Associated Press.

"A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient
in need
of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three
months. It
added: 'If the person named on this computer-generated letter is
deceased,
please accept our sincere apologies.'"

The article says the patient wasn't dead, but this letter provides
cold
comfort to those who obviously do die before they get medical care in
Canada, evidently in sufficient numbers to persuade health care
workers to
apologize in advance.

"The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from
province
to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40
percent of
every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers
Federation."

Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get
when
you need it. What a bargain!

"George Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became addicted
to
painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery, and
hsould
have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr.
Jacques
Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were violated
because
Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer him the
option
of getting it privately."

And then there's this:

"But tell that to the hospital administrators constantly having to
cut staff
for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she
would
have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee
ligament."

So much for the "I can get private health care whenever I want in
Canada"
argument...

"[A]ccording to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada and North
Korea
are the only countries with laws banning the purchase of insurance
for
hospitalization or surgery."

...and you can't buy supplemental insurance to protect yourself even
if you
want to. Talk about your socialistic, egalitarian "share the pain"
bedfellows...Canada and North Korea don't care a fig if you, the
individual,
suffers, they only care that everyone suffers together in comradely
communistic solidarity, while paying 48% of income for the privilege.
Bleah.

It also seems that the average wait time between referral and
treatment has
risen from 9.3 days to 17.9 days since 1993.

What's more, the percentage of Canadians who had same-day access to a
doctor
when sick or needing medical attention is the lowest (27%) of all
when
compared to New Zealand (60%), Australia (54%), Britain (41%), and
the
USA (33%).

And, Canada has the lowest ratio of practicing physicians per 1000
persons
(2.1) of all when compared to Italy (4.4), Belgium (3.9), France
(3.3),
Australia (2.5), and the USA (2.4).

(Sources cited in the article: Fraser Institute; Organization for
Economic
Cooperation and Development; The Commonwealth Fund: Bank of Canada.)

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

=A9 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott, I can hear the reply already, consider the source; Fraser
Institue, right wing US backed mouth piece of the Anti-Canandian
socialized medical system SIG. We'll see if anyone will attempt to
refute the actual stats or anecdotal accounts.

But then when you bought the farm, it is hard to admit that the
chickens are not laying any eggs, the cow not giving the milk, and the
corn crop not yielding the corn. TnT

BCITORGB wrote:

Scott cites:
=============
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,
=============

And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay?


My son and I are covered by a group insurance plan provided by my
employer, of which my employer pays 1/3. My wife is covered by her
employee insurance plan, which suddenly increased by 25%. She shopped
around for personal coverage, and inquired about coverage for the
entire family. Every insurance company she asked said they wouldn't
cover me (diabetes). She chose a BIG health insurance company for
herself, but they doubled her premiums when they found out she was
taking lipitor (statin for cholesterol). Our monthly health insurance
payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us,
health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in. Oh, we live in the good-ol U.S. of A.





--
"This president has destroyed the country, the economy,
the relationship with the rest of the world.
He's a monster in the White House. He should resign."

- Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003.

Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN, Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have had
admirable care. More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary procedure.

But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.

And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask why the
USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita, but is
unable to match Canada and most western European nations on issues such
as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a healthcare
scandal worth writing newspaper articles about.

frtzw906

On 20-Mar-2005, Scott Weiser wrote:

Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get when
you need it. What a bargain!

Bull**** from weiser once again. He obviously can't read or think.

...and you can't buy supplemental insurance to protect yourself even if you
want to. Talk about your socialistic, egalitarian "share the pain"
bedfellows...Canada and North Korea don't care a fig if you, the individual,
suffers, they only care that everyone suffers together in comradely
communistic solidarity, while paying 48% of income for the privilege. Bleah.

More bull****. You can buy supplemental health insurance. It's sold by
many insurance companies. Maritime Life is one of the bigger players in
supplemental health insurance.

Go back under your rock, weiser, we don't need any more of your
lies and BS on this newsgroup.

Mike

This is not kayak related but here goes.
Last year I had a car crash. Totalled the car but the 3 kayaks on the
roof were unhurt.
Thank God . there was a Capella An NDK Exploere and a Sealution.

My neck faired not so well and I had a little concussion. I drove to
the hospital was looked at immediately and had a secondary assesment.
Since then I have had xrays and a couple of visits to my GP.
No cost to me.... ( taxes obviously )
The physio is an insurance thing but who cares, it needs done and If I
had the time it would be free. ( In Hospital take a ticket and wait. )
There was never an issue in whether or not I could pay.
I guess I am a commie. I truly believe the folks in public housing ( oh
,, We don't have a large homeless problem in my community. ) will get
the same care. That is what reflects the values of my community.

My father had some heart problems. He got help immediately.
He passed away but it was not from lack of expertise, availability or
hospital beds.
In the end I believe we will be judged by how we treat the poorest in
society, not the wealthiest. I am pleased with Canada.
Our military is not the most powerfull ( I would like to see it better
funded. ) But we have not fely a need to reach out and touch someone in
the way GW has.
Our medical system is fine.
All the best to you and yours.
Alex McGruer

Michael says:
============
Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get
when
you need it. What a bargain!

Bull**** from weiser once again. He obviously can't read or think.
==============

Further, Weiser has difficulty with math... even using his figures, I
reckon that's 40% of 48%.... but, hey, that wouldn't sound as dramatic.
What a twit!

But I just don't get the point of his post. He's living in paradise and
happy about it. And we're living with a system that we clearly like so
much that we voted (well, I didn't, but apparently many Canadians did)
Tommy Douglas the most important Canadian personage (living or dead),
on a TV poll. [Info for Scott: Tommy Douglas = father of Canadian
universal medicine]

Why does Scott worry about how much tax we pay? As far as I can tell,
Americans pay between 35% to 40% in taxes, depending on the state.
First, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it cost
much more money to govern 30+ million spread out over a huge country as
opposed to 300+ million spread over a merely big country. So likely our
tax bills ought to be somewhat higher. And look, on top of everything,
our guys throw in healthcare. What do the Yanks get thrown in?

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Michael says:
============
Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't
get
when
you need it. What a bargain!

Bull**** from weiser once again. He obviously can't read or think.
==============

Further, Weiser has difficulty with math... even using his figures, I
reckon that's 40% of 48%.... but, hey, that wouldn't sound as
dramatic.
What a twit!

But I just don't get the point of his post. He's living in paradise
and
happy about it. And we're living with a system that we clearly like
so
much that we voted (well, I didn't, but apparently many Canadians
did)
Tommy Douglas the most important Canadian personage (living or dead),
on a TV poll. [Info for Scott: Tommy Douglas = father of Canadian
universal medicine]

Why does Scott worry about how much tax we pay? As far as I can tell,
Americans pay between 35% to 40% in taxes, depending on the state.
First, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it cost
much more money to govern 30+ million spread out over a huge country
as
opposed to 300+ million spread over a merely big country. So likely
our
tax bills ought to be somewhat higher. And look, on top of
everything,
our guys throw in healthcare. What do the Yanks get thrown in?

frtzw906


Hey frtzw, sounds like we got another dance going on, and someone got
your hot button. I'll probably set this one out, but I like to watch. I
am glad that you are so much better with number than I am! I still
maintain you are not an ENTP. Maybe an ESFJ, they like numbers and
everything in order, not very good inventors though, or working with
power tools. How's that rack coming along! But I don't want to
interfere here with this dance, so I will step aside! TnT

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 3/20/05 8:22 PM:

Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN, Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have had
admirable care. More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary procedure.

But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.

And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask why the
USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita, but is
unable to match Canada and most western European nations on issues such
as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a healthcare
scandal worth writing newspaper articles about.

frtzw906

Heh. Well, given the billions of dollars that corporations in America might
stand to lose in a move towards more public health care, I'd say they have
more that a little motivation to paint a ridiculously dark picture of
Canadian health care. It ain't perfect here by far. But I wouldn't trade it
for US style health care, and that decision is easy.