BCITORGB wrote:


But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.


I could lose my health insurance at any time. If I were to change
jobs, any potential new employer would have to weigh the added burden
of putting a diabetic on their insurance policy. Thus, my job options
become much more limited. My present employer could decide to drop
insurance coverage (this happened to my wife). As I said before, most
insurance companies would deny me coverage. (Cherry-picking is the
vernacular for this common practice.) I would be **** out of luck, not
to mention the burden placed on a family where dad has serious medical
issues and can't get insurance. The threat of loss of insurance is a
constant and pervasive source of worry for me, despite the sizable
contributions I have paid into it over the years.





--
"This president has destroyed the country, the economy,
the relationship with the rest of the world.
He's a monster in the White House. He should resign."

- Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our
monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most
expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay
before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out
across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott
and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for
Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN,
Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have
had
admirable care.
=======================
Who said it wasn't? The problem with kman was that he made a
statement that was proven to be a lie. That some people in
Canada recieve proper care was not the issue. I'm sure there are
millions that recieve adequate care. The sites I posted
presented data about people that died while waiting for
treatment. Be it one or tens of thousands makes no difference
to the claim kman made that no one is dying. He was proven to be
lying. Are you now saying that no one ever dies while waiting
for treatment?


More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary
procedure.
=================
Again, that doesn't refute the data that people HAVE died while
waiting, and are you now claiming that no one is even waiting for
treatment at all?






But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that
KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied
insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no
idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance
companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most
expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and
deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in
Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or
greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it).
However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.

And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask
why the
USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita,
but is
unable to match Canada and most western European nations on
issues such
as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a
healthcare
scandal worth writing newspaper articles about.

frtzw906

in article .net, rick at
wrote on 3/20/05 10:25 PM:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our
monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most
expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay
before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out
across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott
and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for
Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN,
Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have
had
admirable care.
=======================
Who said it wasn't? The problem with kman was that he made a
statement that was proven to be a lie. That some people in
Canada recieve proper care was not the issue. I'm sure there are
millions that recieve adequate care. The sites I posted
presented data about people that died while waiting for
treatment. Be it one or tens of thousands makes no difference
to the claim kman made that no one is dying. He was proven to be
lying. Are you now saying that no one ever dies while waiting
for treatment?


More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary
procedure.
=================
Again, that doesn't refute the data that people HAVE died while
waiting, and are you now claiming that no one is even waiting for
treatment at all?

Every single health care system in existence has people who die while they
are waiting for treatment.

No health care system is perfect.

If you look at the sample of people in this newsgroup, of those who have
personal experience with the Canadian system and US system, it seems clear
to me that the Canadian system is vastly preferred.

"Scott Weiser" wrote in message
...
Interesting story today in the Boulder Daily Camera about the
Canadian
health care crisis. Page 4B.



Not only pre-emptive letters, but it's enough of a problem that
they have a "Western Canada Waiting list Project"
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/...urnalcode=cmaj


great line is this report..
"...Overall, 109 patients (1.4%) had a major cardiac event,
namely, death,
myocardial infarction or congestive heart failure..."
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/...urnalcode=cmaj











It's by Beth Duff-Brown of the Associated Press.

"A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart
patient in need
of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three
months. It
added: 'If the person named on this computer-generated letter
is deceased,
please accept our sincere apologies.'"

The article says the patient wasn't dead, but this letter
provides cold
comfort to those who obviously do die before they get medical
care in
Canada, evidently in sufficient numbers to persuade health care
workers to
apologize in advance.

"The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its
income in taxes
each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary
from province
to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40
percent of
every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian
Taxpayers
Federation."

Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you
can't get when
you need it. What a bargain!

"George Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became
addicted to
painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery,
and hsould
have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr.
Jacques
Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were
violated because
Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer
him the option
of getting it privately."

And then there's this:

"But tell that to the hospital administrators constantly having
to cut staff
for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised
she would
have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn
knee ligament."

So much for the "I can get private health care whenever I want
in Canada"
argument...

"[A]ccording to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada and
North Korea
are the only countries with laws banning the purchase of
insurance for
hospitalization or surgery."

...and you can't buy supplemental insurance to protect yourself
even if you
want to. Talk about your socialistic, egalitarian "share the
pain"
bedfellows...Canada and North Korea don't care a fig if you,
the individual,
suffers, they only care that everyone suffers together in
comradely
communistic solidarity, while paying 48% of income for the
privilege. Bleah.

It also seems that the average wait time between referral and
treatment has
risen from 9.3 days to 17.9 days since 1993.

What's more, the percentage of Canadians who had same-day
access to a doctor
when sick or needing medical attention is the lowest (27%) of
all when
compared to New Zealand (60%), Australia (54%), Britain (41%),
and the
USA (33%).

And, Canada has the lowest ratio of practicing physicians per
1000 persons
(2.1) of all when compared to Italy (4.4), Belgium (3.9),
France (3.3),
Australia (2.5), and the USA (2.4).

(Sources cited in the article: Fraser Institute; Organization
for Economic
Cooperation and Development; The Commonwealth Fund: Bank of
Canada.)

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!"
TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Tink:
================
Hey frtzw, sounds like we got another dance going on, and someone got
your hot button. I'll probably set this one out, but I like to watch.
====================

Tink, it's not a hot button at all. It is simply disingenuous of Scott
to pop off with some one-off example and thereby try to discredit an
entire system. And you know what, if the critique were coming from
someone in Australia, or Germany, or France or whereever we could lean
something about how to do things better, I wouldn't mind so much. But
what can we learn from the American system?

First, let's be clear: we tried the American system and rejected it.
it's not like Canada doesn't have experience with privatized medicine.
that's what we had before we went universal.

As to what we can learn; that's simple. America is good at providing
excellent care, quickly, if (and this is a huge IF), you can pay for
it.

I don't need to know much more about the American system than what
Frederick has outlined. That's enough to convince me that it needs
fixing in a bad way. There's no way a decent, hard-working, family
should have to live with such stress. What a stupid way to treat the
people who make your system work and make your country great. It's
dehumanizing. It's STUPID!

What about your personal case, Tink? How much of your monthly income
goes to medical premiums? Are you concerned about losing your coverage?

frtzw906

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tink:
================
Hey frtzw, sounds like we got another dance going on, and
someone got
your hot button. I'll probably set this one out, but I like to
watch.
====================

Tink, it's not a hot button at all. It is simply disingenuous
of Scott
to pop off with some one-off example and thereby try to
discredit an
entire system.
==================
And just where was that done? Reporting on the fact that people
die while waiting must be news for you and kman. Think of it as
a public service. Knowledge is a good thing, putting your head
in the sand and pretending otherwise is dangerous in this case.




And you know what, if the critique were coming from
someone in Australia, or Germany, or France or whereever we
could lean
something about how to do things better, I wouldn't mind so
much. But
what can we learn from the American system?

First, let's be clear: we tried the American system and
rejected it.
it's not like Canada doesn't have experience with privatized
medicine.
that's what we had before we went universal.

As to what we can learn; that's simple. America is good at
providing
excellent care, quickly, if (and this is a huge IF), you can
pay for
it.

I don't need to know much more about the American system than
what
Frederick has outlined. That's enough to convince me that it
needs
fixing in a bad way. There's no way a decent, hard-working,
family
should have to live with such stress. What a stupid way to
treat the
people who make your system work and make your country great.
It's
dehumanizing. It's STUPID!

What about your personal case, Tink? How much of your monthly
income
goes to medical premiums? Are you concerned about losing your
coverage?

frtzw906

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
.net, rick at
wrote on 3/20/05 10:25 PM:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our
monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most
expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay
before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out
across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott
and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for
Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN,
Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who
have
had
admirable care.
=======================
Who said it wasn't? The problem with kman was that he made a
statement that was proven to be a lie. That some people in
Canada recieve proper care was not the issue. I'm sure there
are
millions that recieve adequate care. The sites I posted
presented data about people that died while waiting for
treatment. Be it one or tens of thousands makes no
difference
to the claim kman made that no one is dying. He was proven to
be
lying. Are you now saying that no one ever dies while waiting
for treatment?


More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary
procedure.
=================
Again, that doesn't refute the data that people HAVE died
while
waiting, and are you now claiming that no one is even waiting
for
treatment at all?

Every single health care system in existence has people who die
while they
are waiting for treatment.
==============
Thanks for admitting then that you lied. That wasn't what you
were saying before...


No health care system is perfect.

If you look at the sample of people in this newsgroup, of those
who have
personal experience with the Canadian system and US system, it
seems clear
to me that the Canadian system is vastly preferred.
=======================
That was never the issue being discussed. You might like it to
have been in an effort to devert the spotlight from your lies,
though.

in article , rick at
wrote on 3/20/05 11:08 PM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
.net, rick at
wrote on 3/20/05 10:25 PM:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our
monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most
expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay
before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out
across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott
and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for
Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN,
Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who
have
had
admirable care.
=======================
Who said it wasn't? The problem with kman was that he made a
statement that was proven to be a lie. That some people in
Canada recieve proper care was not the issue. I'm sure there
are
millions that recieve adequate care. The sites I posted
presented data about people that died while waiting for
treatment. Be it one or tens of thousands makes no
difference
to the claim kman made that no one is dying. He was proven to
be
lying. Are you now saying that no one ever dies while waiting
for treatment?


More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary
procedure.
=================
Again, that doesn't refute the data that people HAVE died
while
waiting, and are you now claiming that no one is even waiting
for
treatment at all?

Every single health care system in existence has people who die
while they
are waiting for treatment.
==============
Thanks for admitting then that you lied. That wasn't what you
were saying before...

I never said otherwise.


No health care system is perfect.

If you look at the sample of people in this newsgroup, of those
who have
personal experience with the Canadian system and US system, it
seems clear
to me that the Canadian system is vastly preferred.
=======================
That was never the issue being discussed. You might like it to
have been in an effort to devert the spotlight from your lies,
though.

There weren't any lies.

But you don't want to talk about the issues, that's why you are engaging in
this childish and pathetic attempt to at personal petty attacks.

"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article ,
rick at
wrote on 3/20/05 11:08 PM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article
.net, rick
at
wrote on 3/20/05 10:25 PM:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our
monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single
most
expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay
before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played
out
across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with
Scott
and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate
for
Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN,
Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who
have
had
admirable care.
=======================
Who said it wasn't? The problem with kman was that he made
a
statement that was proven to be a lie. That some people in
Canada recieve proper care was not the issue. I'm sure
there
are
millions that recieve adequate care. The sites I posted
presented data about people that died while waiting for
treatment. Be it one or tens of thousands makes no
difference
to the claim kman made that no one is dying. He was proven
to
be
lying. Are you now saying that no one ever dies while
waiting
for treatment?


More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary
procedure.
=================
Again, that doesn't refute the data that people HAVE died
while
waiting, and are you now claiming that no one is even
waiting
for
treatment at all?

Every single health care system in existence has people who
die
while they
are waiting for treatment.
==============
Thanks for admitting then that you lied. That wasn't what
you
were saying before...

I never said otherwise.
=================
ROTFLMAO You spent a few weeks saying differently before.




No health care system is perfect.

If you look at the sample of people in this newsgroup, of
those
who have
personal experience with the Canadian system and US system,
it
seems clear
to me that the Canadian system is vastly preferred.
=======================
That was never the issue being discussed. You might like it
to
have been in an effort to devert the spotlight from your lies,
though.

There weren't any lies.
================
Yes, there were. First you claimed that no one dies waiting for
treatment, and then you claimed no one waits for treatment. Do
try to keep up.


But you don't want to talk about the issues, that's why you are
engaging in
this childish and pathetic attempt to at personal petty
attacks.
========================
LOL I have addressed the issues. YOU have tried to do
everything you can to avoid them. Why is that? You now realize
that you were lying?

rick, can you not stay on-topic on the OT thread? Why do we care what
KMAN said on another thread? Why not resume your "did too" stance over
there...

You have yet to contribute anything that suggests a better alternative
to the Canadian system. Can I assume you know of none?

Otherwise, whatever your contributions: BOOOORRRRRING!

frtzw906