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No commentary necessary.
--riverman Hi riverman, or is it now aknowledged that you are SuperGuru, glad to see you hanging in there with all my posting snafus, etc. Sorry about wasting the band width! You demonstrated with your response, the very point of the article I posted though. You had been asking me to provide some support for my position, I posted, you responded with a cursory "nice", made no other comment about my position, and laid your egg on me. Now if I play the game, it is my turn to lay another egg, and then it is your turn..... Now I realize that a thread like this is fertile ground for egg laying, and everyone tooting there own horn. Reminds me of Mexico City in the 70's, They finally had to make a law against honking your horn in DF. Noise pollution!!!! This thread started on 11/3, I watched it for 10 days, only posting on the 13th. Now on the 21st, you, and the article you posted, only illustrate my original statement, and my current position. and the point of my article - However you want to analyze it, dissect it, and scream and moan in dispair, the Dems lost the election. "Outpolled, outmaneuvered and out of power, Democrats are suffering an identity crisis." Now I am not saying that Bush won everything that he wanted, could have, or that he has any reason to claim an outstanding victory, as your article points out. And sadly, the Dems largely lost because the man they put forward turned out to be a Dud. But the Dems lost, and the sooner they accept this and move on, the sooner good things will begin to happen. But it seems even with the posting of your article, that you are still struggling with the results of the election. Probably you do need a time to grieve, and I am just not being understanding enough. I apologize. I also apologized for sticking you in the eye, however you were the one that originally referred to me as "snaking in". Yes you did not see me coming but I am not a snake, or a troll! I would not have gotten involved in this thread at all except for all the Bush bashing that had been going on long before I posted! My understanding of a troll, is that they typically start a thread like this, stomp around, and then sneak out. Leaving a bunch of folks hurt! If I've hurt anyone, I apologize. In fact, if we ever meet, show me your "Owwie", and I have a bunch of bandaids. Otherwise, I do not plan to sneak away, and if some of you continue to have fun at my expense, I glad to keep you happy. Lord knows, you need all the joy you can get in these next four dismal years! I again hope that this is not an elite board only available for elite international paddlers who have a liberal world view, and those who agree with them. Obviously there are concervatives out there as well, some of whom have joined in this thread. I came here first several years ago, because I am interested in hearing and learning and sharing with others who are paddling enthusiast. I did not come to find, or make political commentary. I did not come to find or make religious statements. In a previous post, you ask who am I, and I tried to share a little of where I am comming from. If you are interested, fine. If not, no big deal. I'm here to talk paddling, and to hear paddling, and I am sure you all have alot to offer. I am especially glad that this is not an all American board, and that there are international viewpoint expressed. Just understand, that I am here to stay. If you blast me and the things that I feel are important, then you are fair game as well, for I am not one to roll over as you now know. Now that the intros are over, lets get on with the paddlin" Tinkerntom ...... |
Hi again riverman, I was thinking SuperGuru is a bit long, what about
SuprG, I hope you are sincere about needing to be educated more, because the basic foundation of an electoral government depends on an educated populace. And that's not elite Liberal intellectualism talking to you, its out of the Federalist Papers and was a major concern of the Founding Fathers. And according to a lot of people, it is what has failed in this election. People *rejected* evidence and went for single, oversimplified representative issues. Gay rights, abortion, MORALS. And they ignored some huge, internationally significant and complex issues: the war, trade tariffs, financial accountability, international relations, political favoritism. None of these capture the big picture, and if its a complex government in a complex world we are voting for, then it is more important than ever that the voters learn about as many sides of the issues as possible. I don't know what's been happening on American TV (besides reality shows), but I know the international TVs and international Press has been *all over* lots and lots of the issues. And the more educated European populace was floored by the election results, and pretty wholheartedly disillusioned by a nation they used to admire. And don't just listen to educated intellecual Liberal elites (ILEs) and brush them off....get some of your own data and throw it on the fire to see how it smells. Debate with supporting evidence....THAT'S the way to stop fearing people with facts and opinions. But classifying them as ILEs and shoving your head deeper in the sand does nothing at best, and makes bad things worse, at worse. --riverman Oh, and PS: Four more years of President Bush could mean a lot of our wilderness gets opened up to development and timber harvesting. I haven't been this worried for the wildlands since James Watt. Well, you got four years, let the education begin. I already have read more eco and enviro stuff in the last few days, than in the previous year. Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message ... No commentary necessary. --riverman Hi riverman, or is it now aknowledged that you are SuperGuru, glad to see you hanging in there with all my posting snafus, etc. Sorry about wasting the band width! Ah, no worries; everyone screws up in the early days, even conservative neocons who think they own the world. There are several Usenet protocol faqs out there....you shoud read up on them. You demonstrated with your response, the very point of the article I posted though. You had been asking me to provide some support for my position, I posted, you responded with a cursory "nice", made no other comment about my position, and laid your egg on me. Now if I play the game, it is my turn to lay another egg, and then it is your turn..... Egg? I don't think so....I was showing you an article that supported another (and not diametrically opposed) point of view. Now we get to discuss what the articles said. Yours said that the dems are suffering an identity crisis and need to reorganize if they want to play ball. No argument there...but then that's not your point. Your point is that the sweeping success of Bush and the republicans demonstrates a huge shift in the countries morals and values to the right (or at least, a clear demonstration of the stance that had already existed). My point is that this is not so, and that you are being far too smug about the election results. The shift was actually closer to 3% to the right, which closely matched the increase in the fundamentalist vote. I spent 4 years in Israel, and their political system has some interesting aspects which were suddenly mirrored by our last election. The Knesset, the Israeli house of congress, is composed of representatives of all the major political parties, with seats allocated by percent of the popular vote. Whichever party is in control of the Prime Ministership has to scab together enough support from the Knesset seats to hold greater than 50% support...that's what they refer to as 'forming a government'. Inevitably, however, the major players end up splitting the seats with their traditional allies until there is a 49-49 split. Then, this small ultraconservative minority party who holds out until the end, and that holds 3 little seats, finds themselves in an incredibly powerful position....whichever side they choose to go with ends up with the majority. They know exactly where they stand, and it is very influential, and they use it incessantly. Although they represent only a 3% slice of the population, they are very outspoken about how Israel is an ultraconservative country, because their ultraconservative agenda comes to play in practically all the major issues. Of course, absolutely everybody on both sides is learning to despise them, because they insist on pushing their agenda over the interests of the other 98%, but you have to admit that they have clout, as irritating as it is invalid. Yes, your Bush won the election. Yes, the Conservative Right has found itself influential because of various reasons. Yes the Democrats are finding themselves disenfranchised and unorganized. No, the US has not suddenly shifted far to the right, and to claim that these election results reflects the opinions and morals of the majority of America is quite self-serving and inaccurate. And with that in mind, the Republicans are quite well-warned to consider their Liberal Democratic countrymen, as there are quite a few of us....practically the same amount, by last count, and we are finding the republicans smug alienation of us and our issues very disenfranchising. And as the Senate Majority leader of Tennessee (R) said: you pass the same people going down as you did coming up. And what does any of this have to do with Bush's horrific environmental policy? --riverman |
Brian Nystrom wrote...
....so much same ol' same ol'. Yawn. I'm outta here. |
Tinkerntom wrote:
I am not, nor do I know Scott Weiser. Great! and You're Probably Lucky. Welcome to the group. It's good to have more active participants here. I tried Boatertalk some, but the interface was too-time-consuming, so it's kind of a shame that this newsgroup is relatively inactive. Political threads bore me somewhat, but given that where we can paddle is a political issue, I'd say they are definitely on topic. Speaking of politics, please welcome Kevin Lewis as President of AWA! He is a (northern California) Shasta Paddler who worked on getting us scheduled late summer releases on the North Fork Feather! |
Ok, now I'm curious. I've been reading here (RBP, not this thread - or maybe
it is this thread) for quite some time and the name is familiar - was he the sponson guy? Ken "Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ... Tinkerntom wrote: I am not, nor do I know Scott Weiser. Great! and You're Probably Lucky. Welcome to the group. It's good to have more active participants here. I tried Boatertalk some, but the interface was too-time-consuming, so it's kind of a shame that this newsgroup is relatively inactive. Political threads bore me somewhat, but given that where we can paddle is a political issue, I'd say they are definitely on topic. Speaking of politics, please welcome Kevin Lewis as President of AWA! He is a (northern California) Shasta Paddler who worked on getting us scheduled late summer releases on the North Fork Feather! |
Brian Nystrom
I agree that's troubling, but it would only get worse if the Democrats controlled everything again. The only reason that government got smaller under Clinton was that he wasn't able to get Hillay's outrageous health care program through Congress. It was so outlandish that even the Democrats wouldn't vote for it. After '94, the Republicans kept him in check. Even as the current Republican Congress blocked the current President from just having his way regarding 9/11 Commission. I don't expect there is any free sliding by to be had. Of course there will be a few more R congressmen, and a few less D in the next congress, so yet to be seen how that goes! This is the rest of the story as PH says. The Ds can rant about President Bush, but the real problem is they lost more ground in the Senate and House. If they had made gains there, I suspect that we would not be hearing so much about Bush. They have to digest this double loss, and face the prospect of losing in the Supreme Court as well. An unenviable position. Oci-One wrote: The Republicans will never cut the programs that provide jobs or lower commodity and services costs for the heartland "conservatives". They would prefer to (hypocritically) subsidize a farm family that votes Thats right, and who was it that set up those programs in the first place. It was not the CFRs, but now you want them to cut the Programs. Your man could have cut the programs when he was President, and think how much more a surplus he could have shown. Why didn't He? That is right, they vote! *against* Big Gubmint than to provide food and heating oil for the children of a single mom (so what if Mom is a dirtbag; I'm talking about her children here I believe there are programs to subsidize heating bills so that the children do not get cold or hungry. Unless the funds have all been sucked up by greedy administrator, who tap into that lifeline for their own benefit, and then want more and always for the children. -- but Christians don't understand such fine distinctions) in a big city. Personally, I don't mind subsidizing the heartland counties, but then, I'm a "big gubmint" liberal, and compassionate enough to want to care for my fellow Americans in the depressed areas, even if they are stupid, uneducated, and hypocritical enough to vote *against* the very Big Gubmint that sustains them. The people in the urban area, typically voted for Kerry who promised them more hand outs, for their vote. And that was stupid, and I suppose you could say uneducated, because after the 30 years of progect lives, you would think they would get educated that those type of programs don't work. The hypocrisy is on the part of those who make the promises, election cycle after cycle, with no intention of ever paying up! Brian wrote: Fine, feel free to donate as much of your income as you see fit. The IRS WILL accept extra tax contributions. Just don't expect anyone with any sense to follow your lead. If you reall want to help people, it's FAR more efficient to donate to a charity that supports those you want to help than it is to give it to politicians to redistribute. There is not an economist in the country who will tell you (with a straight face) that the Republicans are fiscally conservative (that's why I am no longer a Republican.) Are you saying you were a Republican, now that is embarassing! Granted, they have strayed badly and need to be reigned back in. They will maintain the programs that sustain the rednecks, to keep their voting base, and they will maintain the anti-free-market policies that sustain the corporations, to keep their financial base. So now Democrats are supposed to be the free market party??? That's hilarious! Well said Brian!!!! What the Republicans ARE is SOCIALLY conservative, and that is like ****ing in the wind; society will change whether they want it to or not. People will use dope whether it is legal or not. Homos will screw homos whether the good Christians like it or not. And women will get abortions, whether they are legal or not. The only way they can keep society from changing socially is to institute police-state tactics (where is John Ashcroft when we need him?) and to keep NeoCons in power by keeping the Terrorist Alert level up there around Orange to keep people frightened, whether there is any proximate cause or not. It's funny how society backlashes against these changes periodically. While we can never go back to the 50's, the pace of change can be slowed so that changes can be assimilated more gradually and with less societal trauma. The real problem is our "instant gratification" mindset. The simple truth that we can't have it all right now. Again well said Brian!!!! That's because the politicians -- and 50% of the voting public -- are morons. Oh, yeah, I forgot that liberals are the annointed keepers of all knowledge and truth. Please forgive me. Ah yes, the classic liberal response. Ever notice that when conservatives lose an election, they become introspective and ask "where did we go wrong", but when liberals lose, they become indignant and immediately start pointing fingers and blaming the public for "being stupid" and "not understanding". Afterall, they are pre-ordained to rule, right? What liberals don't get is that you lose because people DO understand! They absolutely get it and they're SMART enough to reject it! As long as liberals live in a world of denial, they'll never succeed. So, keep up the good work! Having called 50% of the voters Morons, reannointed themselves as keepers of all that is true, and pointed their fingers and blamed eveyone except themselves, for why they lost the last election. They are now ready to prepare for the next election, by making every possible emotional appeal to all the Morons of why they should vote for them, because they are the Ones, and us over here are not the Ones. Good strategy, keep it up! Or get a message, that you can convince us you really believe! Good job Brian, hang in there and keep paddlin'! Respectfully, Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis, Life, Live it! |
TnT wrote:
You demonstrated with your response, the very point of the article I posted though. You had been asking me to provide some support for my position, I posted, you responded with a cursory "nice", made no other comment about my position, and laid your egg on me. Now if I play the game, it is my turn to lay another egg, and then it is your turn..... Egg? I don't think so....I was showing you an article that supported another (and not diametrically opposed) point of view. Egg..., by this I mean you have your POV, and I have mine, and we can each find support, not that there is anything wrong with that, just that I prefer the discussion you offer, and I accept. Egg throwing can get messy!!! Now we get to discuss what the articles said. Yours said that the dems are suffering an identity crisis and need to reorganize if they want to play ball. No argument there...but then that's not your point. Your point is that the sweeping success of Bush and the republicans demonstrates a huge shift in the countries morals and values to the right (or at least, a clear demonstration of the stance that had already existed). Negatory, I no where suggested that there has been a hugh shift to the right, but that they won this round, a squeaker yes, but they did win, and the sooner the Dems acknowledge this, and learn to play according to the new game plan, the better for everyone involved. My point is that this is not so, and that you are being far too smug about the election results. Yes I was being smug, about winning, and it did feel good. Now we all get to go back to work, and see if we can work together! As far as I know, we are all still on the same team. Politics is a very strange game! The shift was actually closer to 3% to the right, which closely matched the increase in the fundamentalist vote. I spent 4 years in Israel, and their political system has some interesting aspects which were suddenly mirrored by our last election. The Knesset, the Israeli house of congress, is composed of representatives of all the major political parties, with seats allocated by percent of the popular vote. Whichever party is in control of the Prime Ministership has to scab together enough support from the Knesset seats to hold greater than 50% support...that's what they refer to as 'forming a government'. Inevitably, however, the major players end up splitting the seats with their traditional allies until there is a 49-49 split. Then, this small ultraconservative minority party who holds out until the end, and that holds 3 little seats, finds themselves in an incredibly powerful position....whichever side they choose to go with ends up with the majority. They know exactly where they stand, and it is very influential, and they use it incessantly. Although they represent only a 3% slice of the population, they are very outspoken about how Israel is an ultraconservative country, because their ultraconservative agenda comes to play in practically all the major issues. Of course, absolutely everybody on both sides is learning to despise them, because they insist on pushing their agenda over the interests of the other 98%, but you have to admit that they have clout, as irritating as it is invalid. Yes, your Bush won the election. The riverman finally said it, let the world hear. Bravo! That is still too smug, isn't it? Sorry!! Yes, the Conservative Right has found itself influential because of various reasons. Yes the Democrats are finding themselves disenfranchised and unorganized. No, the US has not suddenly shifted far to the right, and to claim that these election results reflects the opinions and morals of the majority of America is quite self-serving and inaccurate. And with that in mind, the Republicans are quite well-warned to consider their Liberal Democratic countrymen, as there are quite a few of us....practically the same amount, by last count, and we are finding the republicans smug alienation of us and our issues very disenfranchising. And as the Senate Majority leader of Tennessee (R) said: you pass the same people going down as you did coming up Again well said riverman, I have no problem with what you have said here, and indeed the elevator can go down real fast. Let the CFRs take heed!!!!!! And what does any of this have to do with Bush's horrific environmental policy? Well it has everything, if the CFRs had not won, the DUDs would have won! Then we would have been talking about they're plans for the environment, instead of President Bush's. But that is nor reality, and we are hear to deal with reality. BTW definition, DUD - Disenfranchised, unorganized, Dems. --riverman Thankyou for the discussion, we are in amazing agreement. But I would like to go back up in your post and examine your discussion of the Knesset. I have nothing to disagee with you on here either, I am not personally informed of the nature of the Knesset, except by the noble institution of higher education called the public news media, or as some call it, the boob tube. So, at least for this discussion I am more than willing to accept your description, and as far as I know would not be in disagreement with the media observations. Concerning the American political scene, I have heard that it is deeply divided to which I totally disagree. I figure, there are about 75-80% in the great center, with shadings this way or that, but generally very similar, and with common concerns. Around the fringes, are your ultras... whatever their particular issue is. Now, if you take this pie, and cut it in half, you will find half on one side and half on the other, but that does not mean that you have apple pie on one side, and peach on the other. We are much more homogenous than that. The politician game is to attract enough of the fringe to form a coalition government on his side, and all he needs, is 271 electoral votes. Oviously there are areas of difference, but if he wants to survive, he still has to listen to the majority, and not just the fringe. You mentioned the 3% Ultra orthodox, which holds such sway, which in Israel, a religious country, is not a surprise. Here though, I don't believe that the fundementalist are such a force. If than for no other reason, they are as fickle as any other voter, and more than a lot. They can change sides because they get ticked off over a indiscreet act, Nixson's swearing, or lack of acting, Carter's ineptness. Nixson was a Quaker?? Carter, was a born again Christian, but they jumped ship for an actor from the den of iniquity, Hollywood. When you figure that one out, let me know. Then there were a bunch that identified with Clinton, because he was a Christian, and did they get their pants embarassed off. So they swung back to the other side, and supported Bush. If I were Bush, I would sure be careful!!!!! It all sounds like shaky ground to build a legacy on. There are all kinds of issues swirling around in an election. One side takes a stand, to bait the other, and pretty soon you have this hubbub going on, and it may not even be around an issue that is important to either side. But you would never know from the noise. In the mean time, important issues lay lanquid on the table, crying for attention, and no one is listening! Politics is indeed strange. I really don't think that the missing explosives was a significant political issue, or stem cells, or even gay marriage. It was to some, the vocal, but not to the majority in the center. So many of these special interest appeal to a particular fringe. It would seem to me, if you could find the center, ignore the fringe, appeal to the true majority, you could win without scraping up the crumbs. There is nothing more sniveling than a crumb scraper. The coup of the CFR, is that there are Christians throughout the pie. They are not just on the fringe, or easily identified because they wear a certain hat or gown. Granted, there are some out there like that, but most are nondescript. The biggest mistake is to identify all the same, as Fundementalist. In fact by so doing, you perpetuate the myth. The myth is our strength. You give us the power of the 3%. Not that all Christians are fundementalist, but when someone speaks disparaging of one, or Lord help you a bunch, there is a whole lot more that will come swarming to their aid. After awhile the swarm achieves critical mass where they are coming faster than they are falling away, and so it grows. The solution is to certainly not continue making disparaging remarks. That just feeds the reaction. Now, I am a Christian, but I am not a Fundementalist. Do I believe in certain fundementals yes, but you would have a hard time finding many fundementalist that would feel comfortable setting down to a cup of coffee. And certainly by the end, they would be very uncomfortable. So, you want to get together for a cup of coffee? Thats for another discussion. Respectfully Tinkerntom, aka Knesisknosis Life, Live it! |
Bill Tuthill wrote in message ...
Tinkerntom wrote: I am not, nor do I know Scott Weiser. Great! and You're Probably Lucky. Welcome to the group. It's good to have more active participants here. I tried Boatertalk some, but the interface was too-time-consuming, so it's kind of a shame that this newsgroup is relatively inactive. Political threads bore me somewhat, but given that where we can paddle is a political issue, I'd say they are definitely on topic. Speaking of politics, please welcome Kevin Lewis as President of AWA! He is a (northern California) Shasta Paddler who worked on getting us scheduled late summer releases on the North Fork Feather! I appreciate your hospitality, and I do welcome Kevin. My folks were from central California, I was born in Hanford, and grew up hearing the name Shasta, and Kern River. We moved from the area, when very young, but have always wanted to come see these places. Keep them nice for me, and maybe someday I can make it out there. Welcome, and Thankyou, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it! |
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