"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
But then there are reservoirs now that we can paddle and fish,
where there was nothing before.



I absolutely cannot believe that THIS got fanned in this newsgroup, of ALL
places!!

Kindly explain what you meant by 'there was nothing before'..??

--riverman

in article ,
at wrote on 11/14/04
2:49 AM:

no one in Washington - regardless of their political affiliation -
is going to sacrifice the economy for the environment.

strange how there is always enough money for war
but not for the environment.
If only there was a war against pollution...
And those who are not with us, are?

Hey, that's really good!

Just like declaring "war on terror" gives Bush license to wage war wherever
and however he wants, declear "war against pollution" and behave
accordingly...

I absolutely cannot believe that THIS got fanned in this newsgroup, of ALL
places!!

Kindly explain what you meant by 'there was nothing before'..??

--riverman

Hi there riverman, and all,

Obviously there was something there before, but not a reservoir! I am
in Colorado, where there is lots of WW, which is fine if you are into
WW. But even the WW would and still does disappear, as the rivers run
low at the end of the season. In the early season, floods were common.
So the Corp of Eng. built reservoirs for flood control, and Denver
Water Board, built water diversion projects. Farmers built Highline
canal, to bring in irrigation water. Now WW paddlers build play parks,
we boat and fish on the reservoirs, and dayhikers walk along the canal
and enjoy the great outdoors.

Is it a virgin wildplace experience? NO! Is it enjoyable and
refreshing? Yes!!

I believe that many of us paddlers would say we were born a hundred
years too late! or maybe even more. You are right on wanting to enjoy
the wild places. And that there are fewer and fewer. The problem I
feel is when you attribute their loss to GW, and that is where you got
cross wise with a bunch of us. Like a smoldering campfire the hot
coals where already there. All you had to do was add a little fuel,
and fan a little, or as the case may be, blow a lot of hot air! Don't
be surprised if the fire builds up all of a sudden, and scorches your
whiskers.

To those who would question my reference to PBS tv programs, I did not
cite them as factual documentation of what is going on in our
environment. But as examples of the lack of agreement even among
enviro types, of what is going on, how long it has been going on, the
source of the problem, and the net result. Maybe the atmosphere is
warming, and the ice is melting, and we may wake up some day to a
different world, but we will wake up, and adapt. Unless we choose to
not adapt, and choose instead to live in our blue bubble of
unrealistic liberalism.

In the meantime, keep on paddling, ur... maybe I should say go skiing,
on all that manmade early season snow.

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KensisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...
wrote:

On 13 Nov 2004 05:07:38 -0800, (Tinkerntom) wrote:


Funny how all the "Chicken Littles" come out of the woodwork every time

a Republican gets elected President. Yeah, I know, "The sky is
falling!"
and "it's the end of the world as we know it". Blah, blah, blah. Their
dire predictions never come to pass, but it doesn't stop them from
repeating them ad nausem. Some people really need to get a life.


Funny these all came about.

http://chak.org/pages/onion/bush_nightmare.html

You do realize that the Onion is a satirical paper produced in Berkeley,
Ca.

It may have some connection to Berkeley now but The Onion originated in
Chicago and spread from here to other cities in the Midwest before making
its way to the coasts. I routinely read printed versions of The Onion long
before the internet was available to common citizen.

Chicago is a native American word that means 'the onion,' or more
specifically, 'the wild onion.'

And no. It is not a source of reliable information. It's satire at its
best. At least it used to be. It's just silly nowadays. It used to be you
could be half way through reading an article before realizing it wasn't an
actual news column.

Peace

DV

(and has been since, , do you not? If not, I suggest that you reread
the articles with that in mind. Look at the front page and you may
notice Kerry arresting Bin Laden, and the "Nations' Wildlife Fleeing to
Canada."

Rick

"Keenan Wellar"
I think it's the move towards puritanism that scares people.


I don't know where this came from, but sounds like someone has some
other unresolved issues. I have heard liberals blaming their loss on
everthing and everyone else than themselves, but I haven't heard this
one before. Soon we should maybe expect that it was some witches in
Salem!

Whenever liberalism manages to gain a toe-hold, it's slapped down in the
next election cycle. Americans don't want a liberal/progressive/socialist
country, period. Thank goodness for that!

Yeah! Who wants to be progressive! It's bad enough that black people are
free and women have the vote! Next thing you know poor people will be
accessing health care!

You put the emphasis on the wrong syllabis! It is not the
"progressive" part, but Liberal, and especially that which would end
in a socialist country, that is rejected by the good conservative
citizens of this great country.

You set up a false dilemna, regarding free black, and women voting, as
if those issues are still an issue, then include poor people accessing
health care as being comparable. The first has to do with the rights
of all people, not determined by the Constitution, but acknowledged by
it.

If we choose to give health care to all, that is our choice, our
Constitutional right to choose. So far, the voters have not chosen to
do so, beyond Medicare, and other present Federal and State programs.
There is no Constitutional guarantee to the right to health care. All
are presented with the privilege of working for their own dreams, if
that includes health care, they can have it. There are many insurance
companies, and health care providers who would be more than willing to
take your money, and provide the best health care in the world.

If we were to say that everyone should have health care, why not,
everyone should have a car, a house, a house in the suburbs, or why
stop there. I think everyone should have a house in Aspen, or Malibu,
or Monterrey, and I think that Uncle Sam should give them whatever
else they want. And of course everyone should have a job where they
earn at least $50.00/hr. Now that sound pretty good. I think I should
run for the Presidency on that platform. Sounds sort of familiar in
fact, promise them everything, anything they want.

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

Similiarly, enviro issues are presented in the same way. If we sneak
it under the radar, make enough distracting noise, noone will realize
the finacial costs of these programs. The problem, is that we have
fallen for this before, and noone was buying it this time. Especially
considering that for the last 30 or 40 years Nader and his crowd, have
been singing the same song, but tell us the problems remain. That is
why he was ignored this time more than ever before. The fact that
Kerry, gave lipservice, to pacify the eco-warriors, only proves that
they are easily distracted!


Nonsense! While it's definitely true that most Americans consume/waste too
much, recycle too little and don't put environmental concerns above issues
like values, security and economics, there is still enough concern to
prevent an environmental catastrophy. You watch, once the economy recovers
fully, there will be a push toward stronger environmental policies. In
some ways it's sad, but environmentalism only comes to the forefront when
we can afford it.

That perspective is sad indeed.

What is sad, is that we need you big hearted liberals to take care of
all the down and out, to protect the enviroment, to assure the rest of
us that we stay on the path, - and you have proven so ineffective!

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis Life, Live it!

Rick and Keenan
You do realize that the Onion is a satirical paper produced in Berkeley,
Ca. (and has been since, , do you not? If not, I suggest that you reread
the articles with that in mind. Look at the front page and you may
notice Kerry arresting Bin Laden, and the "Nations' Wildlife Fleeing to
Canada."

Rick

That last one could be true!

Again, I take issue with you and your ilk, the question is not whether
I understand that the above is satire, but whether you do? It seems to
me that many of the Liberals have been drinking their own bilge for so
long, that they fail to realize their ship finally sank!

Please understand, I do not hold any ill will to you. In fact I would
encourage you to take a drink of fresh clean water, for inspiration
and information. Who knows, after the next four years, we made need
all the fresh insight you have to offer!

Peace, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

Keenan

no one in Washington - regardless of their political affiliation -
is going to sacrifice the economy for the environment.

strange how there is always enough money for war
but not for the environment.
If only there was a war against pollution...
And those who are not with us, are?

Hey, that's really good!

Just like declaring "war on terror" gives Bush license to wage war wherever
and however he wants, declear "war against pollution" and behave
accordingly...


It should not surprise any of us that politicians always find money to
spend on their pet projects. I just prefer this President's pets, than
the alternative offering!

I did work for the EPA, and the waste, and lack of significant goals,
would not be exceeded by the Clinton war on terrorism, and blowing up
tents with million dollar Cruise Missles. But then that was a good
cover for Monica!

Kerry had his opportunity to declare war on pollution, but chose not
to, because he knew that it would not fly. The trial balloon was made
of lead! Now is the time for you to start designing a new balloon. You
can plan a test flight in 4 years. Hopefully you can present us with a
viable alternative, and not just another Clinton!

Peace, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

It should not surprise any of us that politicians always find money to
spend on their pet projects. I just prefer this President's pets, than
the alternative offering!

So you are not with us in the war against pollution?

http://chak.org/pages/onion/bush_nightmare.html

You do realize that the Onion is a satirical paper produced in Berkeley,
Ca. (and has been since, , do you not? If not, I suggest that you reread
the articles with that in mind. Look at the front page and you may notice
Kerry arresting Bin Laden, and the "Nations' Wildlife Fleeing to Canada."
--Rick

The Onion is produced in Madison Wisconsin, not Berkeley California.
It is a satirical newspaper, you're right there. http://theonion.com

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
"Keenan Wellar"
I think it's the move towards puritanism that scares people.

I don't know where this came from, but sounds like someone has some
other unresolved issues. I have heard liberals blaming their loss on
everthing and everyone else than themselves, but I haven't heard this
one before. Soon we should maybe expect that it was some witches in
Salem!

I'm neither American nor a "liberal" (at least not in the American sense of
the word, although the precise American understanding of that word still
eludes me) but it comes from simple observation. The fact that 11 states
voted in favour of banning gay marriage, and the fact that there is clearly
a move afoot to return abortion to illegal status, are two clear indicators.
The Bush administration did indeed turn "homos" into the witches of the 21st
century and actually won power doing it.

Whenever liberalism manages to gain a toe-hold, it's slapped down in
the
next election cycle. Americans don't want a
liberal/progressive/socialist
country, period. Thank goodness for that!

Yeah! Who wants to be progressive! It's bad enough that black people are
free and women have the vote! Next thing you know poor people will be
accessing health care!

You put the emphasis on the wrong syllabis! It is not the
"progressive" part, but Liberal, and especially that which would end
in a socialist country, that is rejected by the good conservative
citizens of this great country.

How can homosexuals getting married have anything to do with socialism?!?!?

You set up a false dilemna, regarding free black, and women voting, as
if those issues are still an issue

Well, actually, many black people seem to feel that it is! Especially with
old white dudes hanging around the voting area waiting to "challenge" them!

then include poor people accessing
health care as being comparable. The first has to do with the rights
of all people, not determined by the Constitution, but acknowledged by
it.

If we choose to give health care to all, that is our choice, our
Constitutional right to choose. So far, the voters have not chosen to
do so, beyond Medicare, and other present Federal and State programs.
There is no Constitutional guarantee to the right to health care. All
are presented with the privilege of working for their own dreams, if
that includes health care, they can have it. There are many insurance
companies, and health care providers who would be more than willing to
take your money, and provide the best health care in the world.

Mm. Only y'all ain't born with equality of opportunity. But I spose that's
just some crackpot liberal thinkin' there eh?

If we were to say that everyone should have health care, why not,
everyone should have a car, a house, a house in the suburbs, or why
stop there. I think everyone should have a house in Aspen, or Malibu,
or Monterrey, and I think that Uncle Sam should give them whatever
else they want. And of course everyone should have a job where they
earn at least $50.00/hr. Now that sound pretty good. I think I should
run for the Presidency on that platform. Sounds sort of familiar in
fact, promise them everything, anything they want.

Y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

LOL. Again, y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

Similiarly, enviro issues are presented in the same way. If we sneak
it under the radar, make enough distracting noise, noone will realize
the finacial costs of these programs. The problem, is that we have
fallen for this before, and noone was buying it this time. Especially
considering that for the last 30 or 40 years Nader and his crowd, have
been singing the same song, but tell us the problems remain. That is
why he was ignored this time more than ever before. The fact that
Kerry, gave lipservice, to pacify the eco-warriors, only proves that
they are easily distracted!

Uh. Whatever all that means. The environment IS the economy. It just ain't
rightly recognized as such by certain folk.

Nonsense! While it's definitely true that most Americans consume/waste
too
much, recycle too little and don't put environmental concerns above
issues
like values, security and economics, there is still enough concern to
prevent an environmental catastrophy. You watch, once the economy
recovers
fully, there will be a push toward stronger environmental policies. In
some ways it's sad, but environmentalism only comes to the forefront
when
we can afford it.

That perspective is sad indeed.

What is sad, is that we need you big hearted liberals to take care of
all the down and out, to protect the enviroment, to assure the rest of
us that we stay on the path, - and you have proven so ineffective!

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis Life, Live it!

OK, well, back to regular programming.