"Wilko" wrote in message
...


Tinkerntom wrote:

I don't doubt, that there are many Americans, the great silent
majority, who have already faded from view. This thread, illustrates
this well. Where are the Americans? But know they are out there,
waiting to make their presence known if any act as if they don't
exist!

I wouldn't be surprised if they are ashamed for people like you who smear
their nationalistic, overly religious and extreme right wing sauce over
everything that is (or was) good and still uncorrupted about the U.S..

I'm not sure 'ashamed' is the right word. Trying to reason with a
fundamentalist is one of the most arcane and frustrating things in the
world...they get a certain glee out of causing you frustration, because
that feeds their self-righteousness. Which, in turn, causes more
frustration. Then they mistake that childness gleefulness for some sort of
reinforcement of their correctness.

No, its not shame. Its abject frustration. Folks would rather leave people
like that, standing in the rain proclaiming what a sunny day it is, all
alone.

--riverman

Hi Larry, appreciate hearing from you again. It is amazing to hear
from these foreigner, who don't like how things turned out in our
election.


wilko wrote:
And euthanasia, pornography, prostitution, soft drugs use etc. etc..

Let's make people criminals for doing something that others don't want
and therefore want to forbid everyone else from doing.

If he wants to do those things, let him stay at home! We always hear
about the ugly American going all over the world, offending host
countries. Well it seems there is enough ugly to go around, at least
to Canada and Netherlands.

I think you will find that these are illegal to some extent in most Western
countries outside of Holland. While I'm fully in favor of legalizing
"victimless" crimes (most of these are not really, but a different discussion),
these laws are pretty common in most Western countries.

BTW, pornography is pretty available thoughout most of the US. Despite the
rhetoric, there is little censorship, although restrictions on were it can be
shown are common. Political censorship in the US is rare. One can find just
about any opinion in the world published or broadcast somewhere in the US.

Not to mention the unequal rights for women as promoted by the religious
right: women belong at home, taking care of the children. Geez!

This seems to be a very acceptable stereotype, my wife is very
independent professional. Try telling her to "submit" and cover with
the Burka (sp?)

My wife belongs for one of those "evangelical religions". Yet many, if not most
of the women in her church work outside of the home, many with good careers.
While I'm in the camp that believes that mindless superstition and senseless
rituals are all that really distinguishes from the animals, I can find
no suppression of womens rights in the vast majority of Fundamentalist
churches,
excluding abortion.

Yeah, already there is not much left to protect the minority from the
tyranny of the majority, except a lot of money to afford expensive
lawyers who know how to talk a bent stick straight, let alone to protect
the maority from an extreme right wing minority who have the
government's ear. Democracy my ass.

"the right wing" is overblown. No matter how he is protrayed in the press, old
George is Middle of the Road. He is more conservative socially than Clinton,
but politically there isn't much difference. The only difference even foreign
policy wise is that Clinton was an Internationalist and George doesn't always
care if the European community cares about what he does.

The very independence displayed by "George", is what made America
great, and the Euros, are still kicking themselves for letting US get
away. They figure they would not be having all the problems they have
if America was still a Colony!

They eventually just make fun of how he speaks, and that is real
International of them. If they have trouble understanding West Texas,
then they need to brush up their language skills!

If they don't like how the election went, as I recall, they don't get
to vote!

Thanks for the refreshing comments Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life,
Live it!

in article , William R. Watt at
wrote on 11/17/04 8:40 AM:


"Keenan Wellar" ) writes:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message

Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal

Then the Constitution is wrong. You might want to fix it. I think you fixed
up some other parts that were wrong. Like the value of a black person? That
sort of thing.

I'd like to jump in here to address a popular misonception. The Bible says
"all men are created equal in the eyes of God". It just means that every
person is born with what some religuous beliefs call a soul and can get
into Heaven. It has nothing to do with genetics, social status, or
government legislation and enforcement. It's like another Amercian myth
that any boy can grow up to be President. I had the advantage of living in
the USA for a few years, graduating from an Amercian high scool. There is
quite a difference in what people are taught in Canadian and American
schools and in their outlook and opinions as adults. The attitude of
superiority taught in Amercian schools is much more like what is taught in
England than what is taught in Canada. It's not unexpected as anyone who
lucks into power and weath usually comes to think they are smarter or
better educated or something, supported by compliments by others. Because
we have so many abundant natural resources in Canada we live well in spite
of the enourmous mistakes made by business and government, not because of
their wisdom and ability which si no better than elsewhere, and because of
the abundance of resources, tends to be more wasteful than elsewhere.

On the subject of preserving wilderness, in Canada we have more of it but
we are not doing any better than the Amercians in protecting or restoring
it, especially waterways in and around settled areas. We only get
interested in it when we think it will attract American tourist dollars to
areas of low employment. That happens after the mine has closed or the
profitable trees have been cut. It's a kind of natural progression, like
moving west.

When it comes to the environment, Canada looks better mainly because it's a
big place with less people. I think we are, however, a bit more vocal when
it comes to our green spaces, but you are right in that those values often
do not hold up in the face of short-term economic pressures.

in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/17/04 10:08 AM:

Well Keenan, I'll try again to clarify a few of these issues.

You continue to mention the puritans, and I got to thinking that you
being in Canada have a different view of them than we down here in the
Colonies. They were the religious fanatics of the day, that incited
the riot we call the fight for independence. Of course to us they are
just a bunch of nice folks who wear funny hats, and eat turkey.

You seem to have an obsession with pilgrims.

This would also suggest why you have a problem with the Constitution,
and think it got things wrong, and should be redone.

Well, it would have been nice if someone could have foreseen what the NRA
was going to do with that "right to bear arms" line!

You are still
licking your wounds over that little fracus back in 1776. Sorry you
lost that one too!

Uh?

Also abortion. And censorsihp.

Abortion has been discussed before, but censorship is new. Who got
censored?

Um. You are aware that since 9/11 the entire mainstream American media has
been little more than George W's personal mouthpiece?

As it happens, I am not gay, but hatred against gay people is not
"hypothetical" for me any more than racism against black people or unequal
pay for women is "hypothetical."

What happens to you in US politics is all Hypothetical to you. It is
not to those of us who live here.

Nevertheless, hatred against gay people is not "hypothetical" for me any
more than racism against black people or unequal pay for women is
"hypothetical."

Isn't choice great! The Puritans came here inorder to exercise free
choice, and in so doing, chose to live in a land where others chose
differently. However it is also a democratic land where the majority
rules, and the minority is protected from the tyranny of the majority,
by the courts.

Much to the chagrin of George and friends who are furious that the courts
occasionally strike down some of their puritanical efforts. But a few
changes to the courts, and whammo, the powers of hate will have the
congress, the senate, the presidency, and the courts!

I'm glad that you saw what I said about the courts. They have proven
through the years to be a moderating factor in US politics. So the
Constitution does work, and there is hope for the Dems, and the
forest! and you!

The constitution is just a piece of paper. If George has control over the
government and the courts, the constitution ain't gonna jump out of its case
and beat him (more) senseless.

The Majority is currently identified as the moral
mojority, and so is opposed to the immoral minority. I am not saying
that this is true or right, just that it is reality.

Whatever that means.

Think about it, maybe you will eventually get it.

It's not happening.

The minority, now has the choice, of dealing with it, or slinking
away. I admire you that you are not slinking! That things are
difficult for you, no doubt! We were there for a long time, and only
recently have rallied the troops to take significant ground. Now is
not the time for us to get lazy either. We will keep pressing on, and
you can choose to get onboard or not. That is your choice!

Um. Half of your own country is not on board, and just about all of the rest
of the world is not on board. And you are not going to convince me to hate
people just because a lot of you have gotten your **** together with the
hatred of others as your focus.

All your counts don't count in US politics. The only poll that counts
is the one on Nov 2, and is only valid for four years!

Nevertheless, you are not going to convince me to hate people just because a
lot of you have gotten your **** together with the hatred of others as your
focus.


Our choice is that we do not want to have Gay Marriages blighting the
landscape

What is your problem with gay marriages?

Asked and Answered, you still don't get it!

Nope. You never answered.

nor wanton abortion polluting our collective conscious.

again Asked and Answered!

Nope. You never answered.


But you are OK with young girls in the alley with coat hangers, right?

Of course not, but what a false dilemna.

Really!

Before Roe v. Wade, there
were probably some coat hanger abortions. But not nearly the number of
abortions that go on today. Ironically, I heard that the majority of
babies aborted would probably have been raised in a Liberal home, and
would have swollen your voting ranks now by 20 million.

I'nm not sure that they are "my" voting ranks because you still haven't told
me what a liberal is. Is anyone who thinks George W is a dangerous twit a
liberal?

The Dems could
have used those votes, and would have defeated Bush. You have cut
yourself off at the knees.

Again, I'm Canadian, and I'm not a Democrat. I may or may not be a "liberal"
but you still haven't told me what that is.

Will you find a way to deny rich people access to abortions too, or is this
another in your list of policies designed to advance hate against the less
fortunate.

The rich have money to go where they want, to do what ever they want.

Right.

They aren't going to planned parenthood clinics for an abortion.

Right.

However, we do not choose to have the bill footed by Uncle Sam either.
If the less fortunate can't afford an abortion, let them figure out
how to keep from getting pregnant. You know it still is a mystery.

Ah! More of this fascinating logic. A 16 year old girl who gets date-raped
but happens to have a rich daddy gets her abortion. The 16 year old from the
other side of the tracks should be forced to have the baby because she
doesn't have the money to go to a private clinic. So now you've got a 16
year old mother with no money raising a child with no money. And somehow you
think this is a better financial plan than making abortion accessible to the
poor?

Regarding blacks feeling intimidated at the polling place, I feel that
is generally a bogus charge.

Blacks feel intimidated at all sorts of places in America, the polling booth
certainly being one of the places where said intimidation is at its best.

There may be places this occurs, it is a
big country, but I am sure we would have heard more, if it was
rampant.

From who? Fox News!?!?

But it sure sounds politically powerful. And there is the
core of the problem for Liberals. They keep trying to find some magic
bullet to propel themselves into power, without really having a viable
platform. Now that would be really hijacking the election, if they
could have pulled it off, like feeding bogus exit polls to their
sheep, which made them feel real good for awhile, but the let down was
a real bummer. Of course if you can blame it on some "old white
dudes," hey, what a coup. Keep on believeing this BS, if it makes you
feel better.

No idea what you are talking about there,

Again Clueless!

That's one possibility. Or, you might not be making any sense.

but you do realize that the
election was a rather close one, and that it is going to be difficult to
keep people in a state of perpetual fear, or even another four years? Even
Americans will get bored with the so-called "war on terror."

This is an important point, by the way.

Mm. Only y'all ain't born with equality of opportunity. But I spose
that's
just some crackpot liberal thinkin' there eh?

For a change, I think you got it right, sort of! We obviously are not
born with equal opportunity

Praise geezus.

but then that is not what the
Constitution is talking about. The Constitution says that we are all
born equal

Then the Constitution is wrong. You might want to fix it. I think you fixed
up some other parts that were wrong. Like the value of a black person? That
sort of thing.

and that there are certain inalienable rights. Health
care, or driving a Rolls, and living in Aspen, is not one of them.

What about the right to put all your money offshore and not pay even as much
tax as the poorest person?

live in Colorado, but not Aspen. I drive a hardly rolls, and I have to
pay for my own health insurance. I have a black neighbor who has a
newer car, - a management job, that I expect provides insurance, and
both of us could go up to ski in Aspen. Ain't America great,
independent of our skin color, we can go any place we choose. The
only thing that really holds us back, is our own vision of who we are
and where we want to be!

Too put it bluntly, that's an idiotic oversimplification. Your kids, or the
kids born to your neighbour, are not going to have the same barriers to
success as some kid growing up in a **** poor neighbourhood where the police
are afraid to go and the school is a war zone. It's easy to have a nice
vision when you are starting from the top of the mountain.

I am hardly at the top of the mountain, but as I understand it

How have you come to this understanding?

anyone who really wants to can climb the mountain

Interesting. So the kid who risks his life just to walk in the school doors
in one of those rundown black only neighbourhoods just needs to "choose" to
climb the mountain and he'll end up at Harvard alongside the nice little
rich kid from the private school in the gated community.

That is what made the US
unique! and people come still everyday, and are willing to do whatever
it takes to stay.

Sorry to tell you, but it's not unique to the US. Anyone will go anywhere
that puts them in a better position than where they are now.

Luckily most voters realized that the above program is unacceptable,
if for no other reason, than who was going to pay for it? The promise
was that taxes would be raised on the rich. That works until there are
no more rich, and then they come after you and me, or at least me! No
thankyou!

LOL. Again, y'all were sayin' somethin' 'bout settin' up a false dilemma?

It is not a false dilemna, kerry said, he was going to raise the taxes
on the rich.

As I recall, the VERY rich. That little group that has most of the money but
pays hardly any taxes.

Now you said earlier, that the rich don't pay taxes,
because they put them off shore. As if raising the amount due will
encourage them to bring their investments back on shore.

Oh, I see, you should encourage social responsibility in the very rich not
by closing loopholes, but by making the tax system in America as attractive
as an offshore island...brilliant!

That would
mean, Kerry would not be able to raise the promised taxes to support
the promised programs, so they would fail, unless he raise taxes on
me. I don't have off shore investments. The best I could hope for is
that Uncle Sam would take money from one of my pockets, and put it
back in another. This of course after he took his cut. Then all these
programs would fire up inflation, which is nothing more than a hidden
tax as my dollar buys less.

Now I am sure you will probably say Huh! so maybe we will talk more
about that later.

Mm, no, that's too ridiculous for even a Huh!


I am self-employed, which means I get to pay all my own taxes, and I
know how much I pay. I have paid a lot for a long time, and I am not
rich. I would not mind being rich, mind you, then I could maybe afford
to take a vacation or move up to Canada. But then I would spoil it for
you, and that luckily for you, is not a false dilemna.

You should come up here. See if you can pick out the gay married people from
the gay unmarried people the straight unmarried people and the straight
married people.

I never claimed that I could pick out gays from staight, married or
unmarried.
Unless I see two or more of them convorting together

What's convorting look like? And how could you tell the married convorters
from the unmarried convorters?

and then there
is no doubt that all could ID them! So what is the point? This line of
reason does not make me want to have gay marriages in my community. If
gays want to live together, that is up to them, but we do not have to
sanction them as a married couple.

Ahhh....so it's about sanctioning. Reminds me of black/white marriages.
Y'all have got a lot of growing and maturing to do. Get over yourselves.
What's the "straight marriage" divorce rate now? 50%? How's adultery doing?
Are y'all making Jesus proud? Maybe less time should be spent worrying about
gay couples ruining marriage, and a little more time spent realizing that
it's already in a shambles and the idea that marriage needs to be protected
from gay people is almost as silly as it is sad.

in article , riverman at wrote
on 11/17/04 12:59 PM:


"Wilko" wrote in message
...


Tinkerntom wrote:

I don't doubt, that there are many Americans, the great silent
majority, who have already faded from view. This thread, illustrates
this well. Where are the Americans? But know they are out there,
waiting to make their presence known if any act as if they don't
exist!

I wouldn't be surprised if they are ashamed for people like you who smear
their nationalistic, overly religious and extreme right wing sauce over
everything that is (or was) good and still uncorrupted about the U.S..

I'm not sure 'ashamed' is the right word. Trying to reason with a
fundamentalist is one of the most arcane and frustrating things in the
world...they get a certain glee out of causing you frustration, because
that feeds their self-righteousness. Which, in turn, causes more
frustration. Then they mistake that childness gleefulness for some sort of
reinforcement of their correctness.

No, its not shame. Its abject frustration. Folks would rather leave people
like that, standing in the rain proclaiming what a sunny day it is, all
alone.

--riverman

The United States of Canada is the answer...I'm telling ya. Leave Jesusland
to Tinkerntom.

"riverman" wrote in message ...
"Wilko" wrote in message
...


Tinkerntom wrote:

I don't doubt, that there are many Americans, the great silent
majority, who have already faded from view. This thread, illustrates
this well. Where are the Americans? But know they are out there,
waiting to make their presence known if any act as if they don't
exist!

I wouldn't be surprised if they are ashamed for people like you who smear
their nationalistic, overly religious and extreme right wing sauce over
everything that is (or was) good and still uncorrupted about the U.S..

I'm not sure 'ashamed' is the right word. Trying to reason with a
fundamentalist is one of the most arcane and frustrating things in the
world...they get a certain glee out of causing you frustration, because
that feeds their self-righteousness. Which, in turn, causes more
frustration. Then they mistake that childness gleefulness for some sort of
reinforcement of their correctness.

No, its not shame. Its abject frustration. Folks would rather leave people
like that, standing in the rain proclaiming what a sunny day it is, all
alone.

The word is childish glee, and yes I like standing, and walking and
running and dancing in the rain, especially after being out in the
desert for a long time. It may be frustrating to you, but I am happy.
And I am not alone. There are more of us, than there are of you. Is
that simplistic, yes. But it use to be the other way around, and then
you were happy.

Tell me riverman, see keenans following post, and then tell me you
would go up to the United States of Canada. Are you a traitor to the
United States of America? The election is less than a month past, and
it seems some are ready to throw in the towel, and listen to the
Sirene call, which always lands them on the rocks. Keenan has
definitely shown his hand, I have drawn him out for all to see, and I
choose not to play his game, how about you?

Yes it is a game, and I have been playing you for a while. You ask me
in a separate post where I am coming from, and you can know that you
may never know, but you can know that I am out here with a bunch of my
friends. (I will say this, I am a Chess Grand Master, and I love the
game!!!!)

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...
Wilko, I welcomed you to this particular section of this thread. I had
seen some of your post in other sections, and only wanted to say hi,
since I had not previously met you. No offense met or exclusiveness
pretended. Again, Hi and Welcome. That you have been a member of this
paddling community as you say, "for the better part of ten years, and
active participant for about seven years now," I am also glad to know.
We need all the old salts we can get!

Also that you are interested in US politics, I think is great! We need
you to hold the mirror, so that we can see how others see us. I would
just ask that you hold it still! When you get all worked up, your hand
shakes, and it sounds like you have some partisan biases, and liberal
bends! Sort of distorts the view!

Excuse me but how did you decide that Wilko should be unbiased? Has he no
right to an opinion or a to take a particular stance because he's not
American?

Oh, wait, I understand now. His views do not sit well with you, therefore he
should not express them.

Whatever.

"rick etter" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDC15794.11B17%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/17/04 7:14 AM:

Keenan wrote:
Do you think so? It's hard to say. The media censorship is
unbelievable. You
would hardly know any Americans have been killed!

Ah, maybe I have stumbled upon the problem, "media Censorship." Now I
haven't heard of such down here,(certainly there are many voices
reminding us of how many have been killed and wounded)

What voices? I get all the US networks, as well as CNN etc. Which station
can I tune into tonight to get a list of those killed today, and perhaps
a
reaction from their family members, or scenes from their funerals?

It's really no secret that since 9/11 the entirety of the mainstream
American media is just an extenstion of the White House.
=================
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!!!

You're right...most of the non-mainstream media should be included in that
statement too...although most of it is more overtly neo-con.

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
...

"rick etter" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message news:BDC15794.11B17%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/17/04 7:14 AM:

Keenan wrote:
Do you think so? It's hard to say. The media censorship is
unbelievable. You
would hardly know any Americans have been killed!

Ah, maybe I have stumbled upon the problem, "media Censorship." Now I
haven't heard of such down here,(certainly there are many voices
reminding us of how many have been killed and wounded)

What voices? I get all the US networks, as well as CNN etc. Which
station
can I tune into tonight to get a list of those killed today, and perhaps
a
reaction from their family members, or scenes from their funerals?

It's really no secret that since 9/11 the entirety of the mainstream
American media is just an extenstion of the White House.
=================
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!!!

You're right...most of the non-mainstream media should be included in that
statement too...although most of it is more overtly neo-con.
=================
Not a clue in that head of yours, is there?

"rick etter" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
...

"rick etter" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message news:BDC15794.11B17%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article , Tinkerntom at
wrote on 11/17/04 7:14 AM:

Keenan wrote:
Do you think so? It's hard to say. The media censorship is
unbelievable. You
would hardly know any Americans have been killed!

Ah, maybe I have stumbled upon the problem, "media Censorship." Now I
haven't heard of such down here,(certainly there are many voices
reminding us of how many have been killed and wounded)

What voices? I get all the US networks, as well as CNN etc. Which
station
can I tune into tonight to get a list of those killed today, and
perhaps a
reaction from their family members, or scenes from their funerals?

It's really no secret that since 9/11 the entirety of the mainstream
American media is just an extenstion of the White House.
=================
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!!!

You're right...most of the non-mainstream media should be included in
that statement too...although most of it is more overtly neo-con.
=================
Not a clue in that head of yours, is there?

Probably not much brain left to wash in yours...