"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDC2FE7A.11E57%


snippage...





* NOTE: Use of ROTFLMFAO has been banned in eleven US states.
================

So that's your problem, eh? Too bad, maybe you should try therapy...

Hello michael, I was going to respond first, to wilkos last post, but
I decided, to mix it up with you first, since what you said was much
more interesting

(Tinkerntom) wrote:

We need you to hold the mirror, so that we can see how others see us.

Yeah right! All you're going to do is...

I would
just ask that you hold it still! When you get all worked up, your hand
shakes, and it sounds like you have some partisan biases, and liberal
bends! Sort of distorts the view!

claim that whatever is said is biased and wrong. You'll only accept
the opinions of others if they are the same as yours.

You are typically off point in your judgement, and then try to get me
to accept your judgement as if it is true. I said I was more than
willing to look in the mirror. I have been listening to what you have
been saying, but that does not mean that I have to accept it as truth
just because you say it, for they are only your opinions. Truth is not
in the propounding of it, but in the intrinsic core of the subject
matter. For example, I can say loud and long, that water is wet, that
does not make it true. It is true whether anyone propounds it or not!
Now that is keeping it real simple for you, and I expect you still are
confused.... another Clueless in Canada!

I understand that you are in Canada, and listen to the CBC. That was a
impressive poll, with impressive numbers, that does not prove
anything. There is only one poll that matters in the USA, and what a
bunch of Tories believe up in Canada, didn't matter 200 years ago, and
matters now even less, no matter how loud and long they stomp and
squeal.

It is the core, that is important, and yet the Dems still don't get
it. It was said for months before the election that they were lacking
core issues.... But who wasn't listening then? Are you listening now?
Can you accept what I say just because I say it, or because it is true
fact, the Dems lost!!


If you need me to speak slower, I can but it is s.o.r.t..
o.f..h.a.r.d..t.o.. r.e.a.d.

Now that is condescending, and I apologize to you. TnT

On 19 Nov 2004 17:23:43 -0800, (Tinkerntom) wrote:

It is the core, that is important, and yet the Dems still don't get
it. It was said for months before the election that they were lacking
core issues.... But who wasn't listening then? Are you listening now?
Can you accept what I say just because I say it, or because it is true
fact, the Dems lost!!

Sorry to use this post in particular, but it kind of touched on something
that seemingly most people are not aware of. I know many pundits and
newscasters say so, but according to the US Constitution (which I think is
rather binding in this case) the election is NOT over. To be sure, many of
the ballots have been cast and counted for the popular vote, but the
election is not over until early January, I think it is the 6th when the VP
(Cheney) reports the results of the electoral college or something like
that. As far as votes that remain to be counted, among those that remain
are the absentee ballots from the troops overseas. I find it to be
somewhat ironic that many of those who urge that folks "support the troops"
are frequently among those who seemingly do not care that the military
absentee votes are considered to be insignificant. The most common reason
I hear for such disenfranchisement is that it "wouldn't change the outcome
anyway." The hell it wouldn't! It might well add to Bush's tally, and
make a serious increase in the mandate he claims. On the other hand, it
would be rather telling if the troops in the field overwhelmingly didn't
vote for Bush. Either way, we won't ever know anything about it unless
people insist that their votes, along with every American's vote, is
counted. If our troops are dying overseas for (among other things) the
right to vote, the very least we can do here is insist that their votes be
counted. One thing we can do at home as Americans to ensure that troops
(fighting for freedom -- remember?) will not have died in vain is to insist
on free and fair elections here.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

Larry Cable wrote:

....stuff deleted

You have to provide me with specific legislation or rule changes, please. If
one looks at Clear Skys legislation, the biggest complaint is that it isn't
tough enough, although its a lot tougher than what hadn't been PASSED in
Congress or implemented by the previous administration. Last year had the
lowest levels of Ozone in decades, partly because of a wet year, partly because
of controls that have been in effect for years.



A simple google search produced the following:
http://environment.about.com/library...clearskies.htm


Since the tables will not reproduce correctly in this forum, I won't
post the numbers.

If this were the only legislation, it wouldn't be so bad. If you read
Molly Ivins' book, "Bushwhacked," you can extract more information on
his appalling environmental impact. By the way, since most of this
legislation was done under the table, so to speak, much of it was
unreported.

Additional examples are found he
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG9H94VEF1.DTL

He does not "preach access to public land," he
preaches exploitation and destruction of it.


Do you believe that we should make all Public Land a National Park? I firmly
believe that we should be allowed to exploit resources on public land in a
reasonable manner. If one looks at many of the Western States like Wyoming, the

....stuff deleted

I have no problems with sustainable use of public lands. This is not
what Bush proposes (it costs too much to replant and restore, so he
proposes that this is optional to companies). Surprisingly, this is how
it was for most of the 400 years the country has existed and we all know
how well this worked.

Also from the previously mentioned cite:
"Forests

Bush: Won congressional support for an initiative opening 20 million
acres of national forests to logging, saying it would promote forest
health and resistance to catastrophic wild fires. Repealed the
Clinton-era "roadless rule," which banned road-building in nearly
one-third of the nation's forests; under the Bush proposal, governors
may petition the federal government to retain protections on national
forests in their states."


....stuff deleted


Now I agree that some of the legislation on Homeland Security is a little
scary, but the worst elements of it were actually already in place in the "War
on Drugs", like that little know Material Witness thing. Nobody seemed to care
back then.

I would point out that Historically the US and most countries have reacted a
lot worse in times of national crisis like 9/11.
I believe that we put the Japanese in concentration camps, suspended habeas
corpus during the Civil and WWI, and generally violated a lot of peoples civil
rights back then.
SYOTR
Larry C.

Larry, I won't argue that we have acted racially and illegally in the
past. This does not give us the right to do so in a time when the US is
NOT even at war with the "country" (if you can say that about this
situation) which has motivated us to implement these first steps toward
marshal law. The unlawful detaining of foreign nationals, without
charge, without proof of their involvement in any plot against the US,
for over a year is either a fine example of racial profiling and a
violation of our constitution, or a fine example of a country that is
"comfortable with their prejudices" (to coin Rosalyn Carter). Either
way, this type of behavior is unprecedented. Note also that all of the
reasons that Bush cited for going to war were proven, later, to be
bald-faced lies to congress, making the case (and process) for going to
war illegal. Not, personally, that I had any problem with ousting
Hussain (and would have been more supportive, grudgingly, had that
reason been given). My problem is that the processes have been
subverted. This, along with the clauses that seem to keep popping up in
the name of "homeland security" (nice Nazi ring to that, by the way),
lead me to the belief that we are closer, than ever before, to being a
second Weimar republic.

Rick

Hi, my Dutch friend Wilko, and I mean that sincerely.

I took rivermans recommendation, and did some research on some of my
apparent antagonist, and found that you are a well document foreigner.
I had actually been to your web site before and enjoyed the pictures
and stories. You are obviously a very proficient and experienced
paddler. I also read your recent post on this board, "Padding with
hurdles", and that was a very good read about a crazy water trip, you
had me LOL. Reminds me of the Texas Water Safari tales that I have
heard about, minus the Black Water, and about 255 miles, give or take
a few, but lots of craziness.

I was also interested in your gear recommendations, and even decided
against a dry suit earlier in the year, for the reasons you stated.
They are more comfortable, but subject to filling with water if torn,
and becoming a death trap. I don't breath water very well when upside
down, or right side up for that matter! They are fine for diving,
where you have a breathing apparatus, but kayaking, is to violent for
an active life support system that requires special naintenance and
training in and of itself. A wetsuit is a passive system, that works
basically whether you do anything to it or not. If it gets torn, you
may get a cold spot, but you won't drown.

In my Watertribe contacts, they require the dry suit if you don't use
a spray skirt. Now if you have been reading any other post to this
thread, you know that I have a Folbot. I also have a Perception/Dagger
Overflow, and a much older FG Phoenix. I have been working toward
spending more time with the Folbot hence the Watertribe. Lots of good
people there! And I am working on fitting a skirt to my Folbot.

Now I have a couple of Farmer Johns that I got during the summer. The
idea of putting on a wet, and cold wetsuit was not appealling to me
either. I also have a 5mm and 3mm neoprene shortie if it gets really
cold. As well as a spray jacket with neoprene seals, for warmer days.
I hope to do some winter paddling, but the lake does freeze up at some
point!

I had picked up a helmet with full face shield cage last year at
Confluence Kayaks. We have had a lot of low water here in Colorado,
during the last couple of years, with lots of boney areas. A friend of
mine got drug through a boneyard upside down, and got all beat up.
Broken teeth, cheek bone, and nose. It wasn't pretty, but got me
motivated to get a helmet. I am going to check the straps again.

Elbow pads are a must, and knee pads. I banged my elbow hard getting
into a ride at the local water park. Took months to heal. A few years
back, I also bunged up my knees so I am real sensitive to hurting them
again on a bad exit, or hitting them on rocks. Try walking out to the
put-in when you can't walk.

I also got some good water boots. Mostly to protect from the
biohazards in the form of hypodermic needle found along and in the
riverbeds. The news reported this situation last summer, and showed
needles collected along the river. Not all paddlers are ecologically
sensitive. Previously I had worn Tevas, but they don't do much to keep
your feet warm, or safe fron possible HIV puncture.

You mentioned neoprene socks, and I wondered if they help with neo
boots. I have thought of adding a velcrowed strip to the outside
around the bottom of Farmer John and boot top, because I get water in
the boot. But maybe the sock would do better to keep excess water out.

I was also interested in what you said about burping the suit, that
the water layer is not necessary. I suppose divers do it because they
are definitly going in the water. Another gear cross-over dilemna. I
have tried it a few times, and you are definitly warmer if you don't
ever get wet. One instructor encouraged us to do wet entrys, since if
we could get in, we could always get out. Sort of defeated the idea of
staying dry, though works fine with the Folbot since I do not expect
to roll. Mostly using it there as a sailing suit.

I have other gear that I had picked up before, but this is what I got,
largely because of your input. I appreciate your experience and the
willingness to share. My only regret is that I waited until 50 to get
started. You ask do I paddle, and the answer is yes. Do I paddle as
much as I would like, NO! Will I ever be as proficient as you. Never!
I am 55 now, and the old muscles don't work as good, and the bones
don't heal so fast, but I do love paddling.

Most of the time my wife and I go down to Cherry Creek Resv. which is
a runoff drainage flood control reservoir. The water has come from who
knows where, and has some ofthe same qualities of your "Black Water" !
Sometimes the authorities actually close the lake for health reasons.

Will I ever paddle the rivers you have paddled, probably not. But I do
enjoy the lake when I get to go out there. I have spent hours fishing
without a hook, it is amazing how tranquil fishing is if even the fish
aren't bothering you. Ten years ago, I learned to windsurf there. I
got so I could go out and get back to the same spot, without falling
in. Lots of fun, but I missed the tranquility of floating. Then I came
across the Phoenix, which was way to small volume for my 280 lbs, but
fit my wife fine. She just paddles circles around me.

A bit later I got my Overflow, and was all excited about getting on
the river.
Until an aquaintance that was kayaking caught a barbed wire strand
that had been strung acoss the river to keep out kayakers. It
basically took his head off! My wife said no way was I going to do
anything that would end like that! Turns out there is a long running
battle here about river access and passage. The landowners say no
kayaker, they ruin the river ecology and environment. So they hang
barbed wire, and we go out to the lake and play in the wake of the
passing boats. Bracing to keep the Overflow from rolling is a
challenge, and I definitly don't stay dry. Yeah, I love paddling, but
I love my wife more.

Does this qualify as paddling in your book, you tell me, maybe when
you're 55! And personally I do prefer this kind of a post!


wrote in message ...
Tinkerntom wrote:

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Live, Live it!

Tinkerntom, I have just one (off-topic to this thread) question: do you
paddle?

in article . net, rick etter
at wrote on 11/19/04 7:10 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDC2FE7A.11E57%


snippage...





* NOTE: Use of ROTFLMFAO has been banned in eleven US states.
================

So that's your problem, eh? Too bad, maybe you should try therapy...

Therapy has also been banned in eleven US states!

As you know, therapy is a socialst threat to democracy. There is no problem
that cannot be solved with more guns and/or more jesus!

in article , Galen Hekhuis at
wrote on 11/19/04 9:03 PM:

On 19 Nov 2004 17:23:43 -0800, (Tinkerntom) wrote:

It is the core, that is important, and yet the Dems still don't get
it. It was said for months before the election that they were lacking
core issues.... But who wasn't listening then? Are you listening now?
Can you accept what I say just because I say it, or because it is true
fact, the Dems lost!!

Sorry to use this post in particular, but it kind of touched on something
that seemingly most people are not aware of. I know many pundits and
newscasters say so, but according to the US Constitution (which I think is
rather binding in this case) the election is NOT over. To be sure, many of
the ballots have been cast and counted for the popular vote, but the
election is not over until early January, I think it is the 6th when the VP
(Cheney) reports the results of the electoral college or something like
that. As far as votes that remain to be counted, among those that remain
are the absentee ballots from the troops overseas. I find it to be
somewhat ironic that many of those who urge that folks "support the troops"
are frequently among those who seemingly do not care that the military
absentee votes are considered to be insignificant. The most common reason
I hear for such disenfranchisement is that it "wouldn't change the outcome
anyway." The hell it wouldn't! It might well add to Bush's tally, and
make a serious increase in the mandate he claims. On the other hand, it
would be rather telling if the troops in the field overwhelmingly didn't
vote for Bush. Either way, we won't ever know anything about it unless
people insist that their votes, along with every American's vote, is
counted. If our troops are dying overseas for (among other things) the
right to vote, the very least we can do here is insist that their votes be
counted. One thing we can do at home as Americans to ensure that troops
(fighting for freedom -- remember?) will not have died in vain is to insist
on free and fair elections here.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Guns don't kill people, religions do

It doesn't matter, once Fox News declares the winner, it's all over.

Hi, riverman, Now I have posted some nice things about you, and due to
the lag time for them to post, you post this - a troll? I was not
even familiar with the usage of the word on the board, until I read in
wilko site, after you recommended I do some further research.

I throughly enjoye his site, and had actually been there before. I
picked up some really good suggestion on gear. His picture gallery is
great, and his stories impressive. Just never made the connection
between that info, and what was happening on this thread.

I was equally impressed with your stuff, and will continue to research
it. Lots of hours of good reading this winter.

But a Troll, you know how to hurt a guys feelings.


Peace, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Live, Live it.

BTW, I am not Scott Weiser, don't know who he is. If you are ever in
Denver feel free to email me and I would love to buy you dinner. TnT




"riverman" wrote in message ...
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
m...

Yes it is a game, and I have been playing you for a while. You ask me
in a separate post where I am coming from, and you can know that you
may never know, but you can know that I am out here with a bunch of my
friends. (I will say this, I am a Chess Grand Master, and I love the
game!!!!)

Ahh, the Grand Masturbator, finally exposed.

Have a nice day, troll. You and all your invisible friends.

--riverman

On 19-Nov-2004, (Tinkerntom) wrote:

I said I was more than
willing to look in the mirror. I have been listening to what you have
been saying, but that does not mean that I have to accept it as truth
just because you say it, for they are only your opinions.

There is truth, there are lies and there are opinions. The truth stands
on its own. Lies are what they are - a contradition of truth. An opinion
is a statement that cannot be proved to be either true or false. You
can't hold an opinion about something that is known to be true - either
you are telling the truth or you are lying.

If someone offers an opinion, you can accept it as it stands and consider
whether or not you agree with it. Truth has nothing to do with it.

If you reject others' opinions outright, as you have so clearly demostrated
you willingness to do, then it is clear that you are not interested in anyone
else's opinion, in spite of your claims. In other words, you're a liar.

That was a
impressive poll, with impressive numbers, that does not prove
anything.

It demonstrates what a large number of Canadians think of Bush. What else
does it have to prove?

and what a
bunch of Tories believe up in Canada, didn't matter 200 years ago, and
matters now even less, no matter how loud and long they stomp and
squeal.

You don't know what a Tory is, do you?

If you think that what people in other countries think is unimportant,
then you are ignorant of the importance of international politics. But
then, that's what a lot of people find typical among Americans. You
don't know or care about what happens outside your borders and then
you don't understand why no one outside your borders automatically
agrees with you. America is a debtor country and in a few decades will
be much less significant compared to growing economic powers like China
and a more united Europe. Don't you think you'll be needing a few
friends?

Can you accept what I say just because I say it, or because it is true
fact, the Dems lost!!

This has nothing to do with anything I posted. Quit ranting.

Cheers,
Mike

"Keenan Wellar" wrote in message
news:BDC44A28.11F6F%UseAddressOnWebPageProvided@ho tmail.com...
in article . net, rick
etter
at wrote on 11/19/04 7:10 PM:


"Keenan Wellar" wrote in
message
news:BDC2FE7A.11E57%


snippage...





* NOTE: Use of ROTFLMFAO has been banned in eleven US states.
================

So that's your problem, eh? Too bad, maybe you should try therapy...

Therapy has also been banned in eleven US states!

As you know, therapy is a socialst threat to democracy. There is no
problem
that cannot be solved with more guns and/or more jesus!
=================
Your hatred tells you so, right fool?