On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.

On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".

On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

Â*However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.

On 10/26/2017 8:51 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

Â*Â*However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.


In any program, private, state or through the VA, the person afflicted
has to sincerely *want* to change his/her lifestyle. Unfortunately, once
"hooked", few do.

I've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of this subject due to
being involved with trying to help someone over the past 10 years. I've
paid for the person's private rehab stays twice, provided financial help
(against all recommendations and warnings of being an "enabler") and
provided other forms of support that shall remain private. I've
responded to a crisis situation where I found the person passed out and
in respiratory failure (which is how people die from alcohol poisoning.)
Called 911 and kept the person breathing until the police and fire
department EMT's arrived. At the hospital the person's blood alcohol
level was determined to be 460 which is lethal in about 60-70 percent of
people.

It isn't over. This past weekend the person fell off the wagon again
after about 6 months of sobriety. When not drinking this person is one
of the finest people you could ever meet. Considerate of others almost
to a fault and wouldn't hurt a fly. When the person drinks, a whole
different personality emerges.

I've talked to a number of professionals about this issue trying to
understand it better since I am not an alcoholic or drug addict. I am
really torn between the "disease" and "choice" arguments. I understand
what pressures causes this person to drink and have tried to minimize
them as best I can. Not to introduce politics into this but
I think Trump's comments yesterday (and his reflections of his brother
Fred) were pretty close to hitting home for most people with an
addiction problem. It starts at home where the influence of being
responsible and accountable for your actions should be emphasized.
Unfortunately it isn't done as much anymore because our medical
community and government has convinced most that it's a "disease", not a
lifestyle choice and have passed the problem on to others to address.
Home influences won't always eliminate drug or alcohol addiction but it
may help to curb the number of people affected. I don't think it's
attributed 100 percent to being a disease. I think calling it a disease
in many cases has made the problem worse because those afflicted have an
"excuse" of sorts to give up, thinking they can't exercise control of
their lives.

It's a very difficult and complex social problem.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:29:38 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 8:51 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

**However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.


In any program, private, state or through the VA, the person afflicted
has to sincerely *want* to change his/her lifestyle. Unfortunately, once
"hooked", few do.

I've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of this subject due to
being involved with trying to help someone over the past 10 years. I've
paid for the person's private rehab stays twice, provided financial help
(against all recommendations and warnings of being an "enabler") and
provided other forms of support that shall remain private. I've
responded to a crisis situation where I found the person passed out and
in respiratory failure (which is how people die from alcohol poisoning.)
Called 911 and kept the person breathing until the police and fire
department EMT's arrived. At the hospital the person's blood alcohol
level was determined to be 460 which is lethal in about 60-70 percent of
people.

It isn't over. This past weekend the person fell off the wagon again
after about 6 months of sobriety. When not drinking this person is one
of the finest people you could ever meet. Considerate of others almost
to a fault and wouldn't hurt a fly. When the person drinks, a whole
different personality emerges.

I've talked to a number of professionals about this issue trying to
understand it better since I am not an alcoholic or drug addict. I am
really torn between the "disease" and "choice" arguments. I understand
what pressures causes this person to drink and have tried to minimize
them as best I can. Not to introduce politics into this but
I think Trump's comments yesterday (and his reflections of his brother
Fred) were pretty close to hitting home for most people with an
addiction problem. It starts at home where the influence of being
responsible and accountable for your actions should be emphasized.
Unfortunately it isn't done as much anymore because our medical
community and government has convinced most that it's a "disease", not a
lifestyle choice and have passed the problem on to others to address.
Home influences won't always eliminate drug or alcohol addiction but it
may help to curb the number of people affected. I don't think it's
attributed 100 percent to being a disease. I think calling it a disease
in many cases has made the problem worse because those afflicted have an
"excuse" of sorts to give up, thinking they can't exercise control of
their lives.

It's a very difficult and complex social problem.

Has he tried AA? Does *he* realize he's got a problem? I don't believe that 'pressures' cause a
person to drink, but that 'pressures' are often used as an excuse to drink. I do believe that
individuals may have a propensity to drink excessively, and that this propensity may be inherited.
That should make children of alcoholics even more fearful of that insidious stuff.

I also believe that each individual has to reach his 'bottom', the point where alcohol is causing
more problems than its worth. This 'bottom' is different for each individual. For some the bottom is
when they notice that alcohol is affecting their job performance or marriage. For others it's when
they've lost their job, their wife, their kids. For some it's death. I believe the depth of one's
'bottom' is greatly influenced by what you mentioned above - starts at home, as a kid, where being
accountable is emphasized. Even then, though, each individual will have his own bottom.

On 10/27/2017 9:49 AM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:29:38 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 8:51 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

Â*Â*However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.


In any program, private, state or through the VA, the person afflicted
has to sincerely *want* to change his/her lifestyle. Unfortunately, once
"hooked", few do.

I've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of this subject due to
being involved with trying to help someone over the past 10 years. I've
paid for the person's private rehab stays twice, provided financial help
(against all recommendations and warnings of being an "enabler") and
provided other forms of support that shall remain private. I've
responded to a crisis situation where I found the person passed out and
in respiratory failure (which is how people die from alcohol poisoning.)
Called 911 and kept the person breathing until the police and fire
department EMT's arrived. At the hospital the person's blood alcohol
level was determined to be 460 which is lethal in about 60-70 percent of
people.

It isn't over. This past weekend the person fell off the wagon again
after about 6 months of sobriety. When not drinking this person is one
of the finest people you could ever meet. Considerate of others almost
to a fault and wouldn't hurt a fly. When the person drinks, a whole
different personality emerges.

I've talked to a number of professionals about this issue trying to
understand it better since I am not an alcoholic or drug addict. I am
really torn between the "disease" and "choice" arguments. I understand
what pressures causes this person to drink and have tried to minimize
them as best I can. Not to introduce politics into this but
I think Trump's comments yesterday (and his reflections of his brother
Fred) were pretty close to hitting home for most people with an
addiction problem. It starts at home where the influence of being
responsible and accountable for your actions should be emphasized.
Unfortunately it isn't done as much anymore because our medical
community and government has convinced most that it's a "disease", not a
lifestyle choice and have passed the problem on to others to address.
Home influences won't always eliminate drug or alcohol addiction but it
may help to curb the number of people affected. I don't think it's
attributed 100 percent to being a disease. I think calling it a disease
in many cases has made the problem worse because those afflicted have an
"excuse" of sorts to give up, thinking they can't exercise control of
their lives.

It's a very difficult and complex social problem.

Has he tried AA? Does *he* realize he's got a problem? I don't believe that 'pressures' cause a
person to drink, but that 'pressures' are often used as an excuse to drink. I do believe that
individuals may have a propensity to drink excessively, and that this propensity may be inherited.
That should make children of alcoholics even more fearful of that insidious stuff.

I also believe that each individual has to reach his 'bottom', the point where alcohol is causing
more problems than its worth. This 'bottom' is different for each individual. For some the bottom is
when they notice that alcohol is affecting their job performance or marriage. For others it's when
they've lost their job, their wife, their kids. For some it's death. I believe the depth of one's
'bottom' is greatly influenced by what you mentioned above - starts at home, as a kid, where being
accountable is emphasized. Even then, though, each individual will have his own bottom.



Heh. I've been to so many meetings as "support" for this person that I
could probably start my own AA chapter. AA works for many but not for
all. Overall, it has a better track record than commercial rehab
centers but only if the person is willing to completely commit to the
"Big Book" and the 12 step program. Too many think themselves out of
it, mostly resisting the concept of a "higher power".

Overall, progress is being made. 5 years ago this person would not
admit to having a problem and it took a herculean effort to convince to
go to rehab the first time around. That has changed. Acknowledgement
of having a problem now exists. It's a long haul that requires a lot of
support. Nobody kicks it on their own.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:25:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/27/2017 9:49 AM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:29:38 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 8:51 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

**However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.


In any program, private, state or through the VA, the person afflicted
has to sincerely *want* to change his/her lifestyle. Unfortunately, once
"hooked", few do.

I've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of this subject due to
being involved with trying to help someone over the past 10 years. I've
paid for the person's private rehab stays twice, provided financial help
(against all recommendations and warnings of being an "enabler") and
provided other forms of support that shall remain private. I've
responded to a crisis situation where I found the person passed out and
in respiratory failure (which is how people die from alcohol poisoning.)
Called 911 and kept the person breathing until the police and fire
department EMT's arrived. At the hospital the person's blood alcohol
level was determined to be 460 which is lethal in about 60-70 percent of
people.

It isn't over. This past weekend the person fell off the wagon again
after about 6 months of sobriety. When not drinking this person is one
of the finest people you could ever meet. Considerate of others almost
to a fault and wouldn't hurt a fly. When the person drinks, a whole
different personality emerges.

I've talked to a number of professionals about this issue trying to
understand it better since I am not an alcoholic or drug addict. I am
really torn between the "disease" and "choice" arguments. I understand
what pressures causes this person to drink and have tried to minimize
them as best I can. Not to introduce politics into this but
I think Trump's comments yesterday (and his reflections of his brother
Fred) were pretty close to hitting home for most people with an
addiction problem. It starts at home where the influence of being
responsible and accountable for your actions should be emphasized.
Unfortunately it isn't done as much anymore because our medical
community and government has convinced most that it's a "disease", not a
lifestyle choice and have passed the problem on to others to address.
Home influences won't always eliminate drug or alcohol addiction but it
may help to curb the number of people affected. I don't think it's
attributed 100 percent to being a disease. I think calling it a disease
in many cases has made the problem worse because those afflicted have an
"excuse" of sorts to give up, thinking they can't exercise control of
their lives.

It's a very difficult and complex social problem.

Has he tried AA? Does *he* realize he's got a problem? I don't believe that 'pressures' cause a
person to drink, but that 'pressures' are often used as an excuse to drink. I do believe that
individuals may have a propensity to drink excessively, and that this propensity may be inherited.
That should make children of alcoholics even more fearful of that insidious stuff.

I also believe that each individual has to reach his 'bottom', the point where alcohol is causing
more problems than its worth. This 'bottom' is different for each individual. For some the bottom is
when they notice that alcohol is affecting their job performance or marriage. For others it's when
they've lost their job, their wife, their kids. For some it's death. I believe the depth of one's
'bottom' is greatly influenced by what you mentioned above - starts at home, as a kid, where being
accountable is emphasized. Even then, though, each individual will have his own bottom.



Heh. I've been to so many meetings as "support" for this person that I
could probably start my own AA chapter. AA works for many but not for
all. Overall, it has a better track record than commercial rehab
centers but only if the person is willing to completely commit to the
"Big Book" and the 12 step program. Too many think themselves out of
it, mostly resisting the concept of a "higher power".

Overall, progress is being made. 5 years ago this person would not
admit to having a problem and it took a herculean effort to convince to
go to rehab the first time around. That has changed. Acknowledgement
of having a problem now exists. It's a long haul that requires a lot of
support. Nobody kicks it on their own.


I am very close to a person with an alcohol problem. He knows it's a problem, but thinks he can
control it. Also thinks it doesn't hurt to have a bit of wine or what ever. On several occasions
he's called when he's too drunk to get up and go to work.

He's an atheist. Won't go to an AA meeting because of the 'higher power' bit. One doesn't have to
believe in God to believe that there may be a 'higher power'. The higher power can simply be the AA
group and the help one derives from the group. However, the 'higher power' idea does provide an
atheist a ready excuse. Googling 'atheists and alcoholics anonymous' provides some interesting
links.

Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts
and alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they
have financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock
bottom" before they are willing to consider it.

However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.

Too bad you don't pay your taxes to contribute to the VA.