On 10/27/2017 1:10 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:25:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/27/2017 9:49 AM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:29:38 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 8:51 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

Â*Â*However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.


In any program, private, state or through the VA, the person afflicted
has to sincerely *want* to change his/her lifestyle. Unfortunately, once
"hooked", few do.

I've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of this subject due to
being involved with trying to help someone over the past 10 years. I've
paid for the person's private rehab stays twice, provided financial help
(against all recommendations and warnings of being an "enabler") and
provided other forms of support that shall remain private. I've
responded to a crisis situation where I found the person passed out and
in respiratory failure (which is how people die from alcohol poisoning.)
Called 911 and kept the person breathing until the police and fire
department EMT's arrived. At the hospital the person's blood alcohol
level was determined to be 460 which is lethal in about 60-70 percent of
people.

It isn't over. This past weekend the person fell off the wagon again
after about 6 months of sobriety. When not drinking this person is one
of the finest people you could ever meet. Considerate of others almost
to a fault and wouldn't hurt a fly. When the person drinks, a whole
different personality emerges.

I've talked to a number of professionals about this issue trying to
understand it better since I am not an alcoholic or drug addict. I am
really torn between the "disease" and "choice" arguments. I understand
what pressures causes this person to drink and have tried to minimize
them as best I can. Not to introduce politics into this but
I think Trump's comments yesterday (and his reflections of his brother
Fred) were pretty close to hitting home for most people with an
addiction problem. It starts at home where the influence of being
responsible and accountable for your actions should be emphasized.
Unfortunately it isn't done as much anymore because our medical
community and government has convinced most that it's a "disease", not a
lifestyle choice and have passed the problem on to others to address.
Home influences won't always eliminate drug or alcohol addiction but it
may help to curb the number of people affected. I don't think it's
attributed 100 percent to being a disease. I think calling it a disease
in many cases has made the problem worse because those afflicted have an
"excuse" of sorts to give up, thinking they can't exercise control of
their lives.

It's a very difficult and complex social problem.

Has he tried AA? Does *he* realize he's got a problem? I don't believe that 'pressures' cause a
person to drink, but that 'pressures' are often used as an excuse to drink. I do believe that
individuals may have a propensity to drink excessively, and that this propensity may be inherited.
That should make children of alcoholics even more fearful of that insidious stuff.

I also believe that each individual has to reach his 'bottom', the point where alcohol is causing
more problems than its worth. This 'bottom' is different for each individual. For some the bottom is
when they notice that alcohol is affecting their job performance or marriage. For others it's when
they've lost their job, their wife, their kids. For some it's death. I believe the depth of one's
'bottom' is greatly influenced by what you mentioned above - starts at home, as a kid, where being
accountable is emphasized. Even then, though, each individual will have his own bottom.



Heh. I've been to so many meetings as "support" for this person that I
could probably start my own AA chapter. AA works for many but not for
all. Overall, it has a better track record than commercial rehab
centers but only if the person is willing to completely commit to the
"Big Book" and the 12 step program. Too many think themselves out of
it, mostly resisting the concept of a "higher power".

Overall, progress is being made. 5 years ago this person would not
admit to having a problem and it took a herculean effort to convince to
go to rehab the first time around. That has changed. Acknowledgement
of having a problem now exists. It's a long haul that requires a lot of
support. Nobody kicks it on their own.


I am very close to a person with an alcohol problem. He knows it's a problem, but thinks he can
control it. Also thinks it doesn't hurt to have a bit of wine or what ever. On several occasions
he's called when he's too drunk to get up and go to work.

He's an atheist. Won't go to an AA meeting because of the 'higher power' bit. One doesn't have to
believe in God to believe that there may be a 'higher power'. The higher power can simply be the AA
group and the help one derives from the group. However, the 'higher power' idea does provide an
atheist a ready excuse. Googling 'atheists and alcoholics anonymous' provides some interesting
links.



There are many forms of alcoholism and it demonstrates in many ways.
I've known guys who drink pretty much all day, maintaining a "buzz" but
remain totally functional until they run out of booze.

The person I am trying to help is a "binge" drinker. Once started, the
drinking will continue until the person passes out. Wakes up and starts
drinking again to take the edge off the withdrawal symptoms. Drinks an
incredible amount of booze, once started.

In my younger days I'd occasionally "tie one on", usually when with a
bunch of friends. Many of us did that, I think. I'd wake up the next
morning with a horrible hangover, sweats, shakes, etc., but by 2 or 3
in the afternoon my head would clear, I'd feel much better and it would
be pretty much over. Last thing in the world I wanted after a night of
drinking and partying was another drink.

Not the case with with the person I am talking about. If the booze is
cut off, withdrawals (basically a prolonged, severe hangover) will last
at least a week, sometimes more. It's also a dangerous period of time
and usually medical supervision (detox) is required. This person also
has a history of at least one seizure during the withdrawal process.
Fell on the floor in a detox unit resulting in a fractured skull.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:36:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/27/2017 1:10 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:25:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/27/2017 9:49 AM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:29:38 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 8:51 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts and
alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they have
financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock bottom"
before they are willing to consider it.

**However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.


In any program, private, state or through the VA, the person afflicted
has to sincerely *want* to change his/her lifestyle. Unfortunately, once
"hooked", few do.

I've gained a lot of experience and knowledge of this subject due to
being involved with trying to help someone over the past 10 years. I've
paid for the person's private rehab stays twice, provided financial help
(against all recommendations and warnings of being an "enabler") and
provided other forms of support that shall remain private. I've
responded to a crisis situation where I found the person passed out and
in respiratory failure (which is how people die from alcohol poisoning.)
Called 911 and kept the person breathing until the police and fire
department EMT's arrived. At the hospital the person's blood alcohol
level was determined to be 460 which is lethal in about 60-70 percent of
people.

It isn't over. This past weekend the person fell off the wagon again
after about 6 months of sobriety. When not drinking this person is one
of the finest people you could ever meet. Considerate of others almost
to a fault and wouldn't hurt a fly. When the person drinks, a whole
different personality emerges.

I've talked to a number of professionals about this issue trying to
understand it better since I am not an alcoholic or drug addict. I am
really torn between the "disease" and "choice" arguments. I understand
what pressures causes this person to drink and have tried to minimize
them as best I can. Not to introduce politics into this but
I think Trump's comments yesterday (and his reflections of his brother
Fred) were pretty close to hitting home for most people with an
addiction problem. It starts at home where the influence of being
responsible and accountable for your actions should be emphasized.
Unfortunately it isn't done as much anymore because our medical
community and government has convinced most that it's a "disease", not a
lifestyle choice and have passed the problem on to others to address.
Home influences won't always eliminate drug or alcohol addiction but it
may help to curb the number of people affected. I don't think it's
attributed 100 percent to being a disease. I think calling it a disease
in many cases has made the problem worse because those afflicted have an
"excuse" of sorts to give up, thinking they can't exercise control of
their lives.

It's a very difficult and complex social problem.

Has he tried AA? Does *he* realize he's got a problem? I don't believe that 'pressures' cause a
person to drink, but that 'pressures' are often used as an excuse to drink. I do believe that
individuals may have a propensity to drink excessively, and that this propensity may be inherited.
That should make children of alcoholics even more fearful of that insidious stuff.

I also believe that each individual has to reach his 'bottom', the point where alcohol is causing
more problems than its worth. This 'bottom' is different for each individual. For some the bottom is
when they notice that alcohol is affecting their job performance or marriage. For others it's when
they've lost their job, their wife, their kids. For some it's death. I believe the depth of one's
'bottom' is greatly influenced by what you mentioned above - starts at home, as a kid, where being
accountable is emphasized. Even then, though, each individual will have his own bottom.



Heh. I've been to so many meetings as "support" for this person that I
could probably start my own AA chapter. AA works for many but not for
all. Overall, it has a better track record than commercial rehab
centers but only if the person is willing to completely commit to the
"Big Book" and the 12 step program. Too many think themselves out of
it, mostly resisting the concept of a "higher power".

Overall, progress is being made. 5 years ago this person would not
admit to having a problem and it took a herculean effort to convince to
go to rehab the first time around. That has changed. Acknowledgement
of having a problem now exists. It's a long haul that requires a lot of
support. Nobody kicks it on their own.


I am very close to a person with an alcohol problem. He knows it's a problem, but thinks he can
control it. Also thinks it doesn't hurt to have a bit of wine or what ever. On several occasions
he's called when he's too drunk to get up and go to work.

He's an atheist. Won't go to an AA meeting because of the 'higher power' bit. One doesn't have to
believe in God to believe that there may be a 'higher power'. The higher power can simply be the AA
group and the help one derives from the group. However, the 'higher power' idea does provide an
atheist a ready excuse. Googling 'atheists and alcoholics anonymous' provides some interesting
links.



There are many forms of alcoholism and it demonstrates in many ways.
I've known guys who drink pretty much all day, maintaining a "buzz" but
remain totally functional until they run out of booze.

The person I am trying to help is a "binge" drinker. Once started, the
drinking will continue until the person passes out. Wakes up and starts
drinking again to take the edge off the withdrawal symptoms. Drinks an
incredible amount of booze, once started.

In my younger days I'd occasionally "tie one on", usually when with a
bunch of friends. Many of us did that, I think. I'd wake up the next
morning with a horrible hangover, sweats, shakes, etc., but by 2 or 3
in the afternoon my head would clear, I'd feel much better and it would
be pretty much over. Last thing in the world I wanted after a night of
drinking and partying was another drink.

Not the case with with the person I am talking about. If the booze is
cut off, withdrawals (basically a prolonged, severe hangover) will last
at least a week, sometimes more. It's also a dangerous period of time
and usually medical supervision (detox) is required. This person also
has a history of at least one seizure during the withdrawal process.
Fell on the floor in a detox unit resulting in a fractured skull.

To me, the definition of an alcoholic is simple: If alcohol is causing a chronic problem and the
person continues to drink, then the person's an alcoholic.

I know exactly what you mean by 'binge drinker'.

Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 6:27 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/26/2017 4:24 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Looks like President Empathy is just going to not solve the crisis by
re-allocating funds. If only there was a better way for some of his
buddies to make big bucks over getting folks off opioids, eh?


What works now?


The only thing I have seen that works is hitting bottom hard, sleeping
outdoors and perhaps with a little prison time but it is still not a
certainty.
The "kid" (I still think of him as a kid but he is over 50) next door
seems to have turned the corner but it had nothing to do with rehab.
He just got tired of sleeping in the woods when he wasn't locked up. I
know Harry will scoff but he found Jesus too. He is not devout but he
did find friends there who accepted him and are not stoned all the
time.
I think the black sheep brother in my wife's family may be turning it
around too but he is over 60. (same deal almost exactly)
I have not heard from my Marine Recon buddy recently but he was still
bouncing off the bottom the last time I heard from him. The VA might
even be an enabler in that case.



The VA up here has an excellent, long term treatment program that is
highly successful for those who go through the entire 6 months.
The problem is most will lose their jobs after 30 days and addicts
and alcoholics don't always want to face that, especially when they
have financial obligations to families, etc. They have to hit "rock
bottom" before they are willing to consider it.

However, the VA also has a placement program for those who need to
find a new job once they have "graduated".


It's great that the VA does that. Too many private insurance providers
only provide a much shorter stay and many times that simply isn't long
enough.

Too bad you don't pay your taxes to contribute to the VA.

wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:00:10 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 07:34:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/26/2017 8:58 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/26/17 8:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:27:04 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

As if you assholes had any idea of how tough on the body the sort of
work many construction workers do every day.
Really?

Get back to us after you spend a few weeks tossing, lifting, buttering
and placing 12" concrete line block

Been there, done that.

Also worked with a SeaBee Battalion for almost a year doing construction
and electrical wiring, all in metallic conduit BTW.

I agree though that those experiences provide great motivation to go to
school.
I wonder where Harry did all this work with 12" blocks. The one's I've toted were all 16".
He is talking about a 12x16x8. I used them on the spa in Maryland.
They are pretty rare in Florida except in the heaviest of commercial.


He doesn't know what he's typing about.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:05:58 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

The last time I worked with block, "decorative block" at that, was about
10 years ago, on the 12' x 20' building out on the Shenandoah. It was a
backbreaker.

"Split face"?
Looks a little like stone when laid.


Yeah...gives a decent finished surface on the exterior...more attractive
than standard CMU’s.

Pretty popular for office buildings and store fronts. Target uses red
dyed ones here.
When I was building the surround for the spa I thought about them for
about 30 seconds and decided to go with natural stone. Now we have
natural stone everywhere.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:36:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:




There are many forms of alcoholism and it demonstrates in many ways.
I've known guys who drink pretty much all day, maintaining a "buzz" but
remain totally functional until they run out of booze.

The person I am trying to help is a "binge" drinker. Once started, the
drinking will continue until the person passes out. Wakes up and starts
drinking again to take the edge off the withdrawal symptoms. Drinks an
incredible amount of booze, once started.

In my younger days I'd occasionally "tie one on", usually when with a
bunch of friends. Many of us did that, I think. I'd wake up the next
morning with a horrible hangover, sweats, shakes, etc., but by 2 or 3
in the afternoon my head would clear, I'd feel much better and it would
be pretty much over. Last thing in the world I wanted after a night of
drinking and partying was another drink.

Not the case with with the person I am talking about. If the booze is
cut off, withdrawals (basically a prolonged, severe hangover) will last
at least a week, sometimes more. It's also a dangerous period of time
and usually medical supervision (detox) is required. This person also
has a history of at least one seizure during the withdrawal process.
Fell on the floor in a detox unit resulting in a fractured skull.

I know lots of high functioning alcoholics, DC is full of them. I am
not sure about now but DC used to have the highest per capita
consumption of alcohol in the country.
In the 80s I think they were also the highest consumers of cocaine
too.
I know it was everywhere.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 20:27:49 -0400, John H
wrote:

To me, the definition of an alcoholic is simple: If alcohol is causing a chronic problem and the
person continues to drink, then the person's an alcoholic.

I know exactly what you mean by 'binge drinker'.

There are several definitions of alcoholic, depending on who you talk
to.
There are 10s of millions of high functioning alcoholics who drink
every day (one of the definitions) but still get to work every day,
perform OK and have no real drama in their life.
These people usually "ration" their intake but it is still a necessary
part of their life.

Another definition is the binge drinker who just can't stop once they
start and that may or may not end well but then they can lay off for
days or even months between binges.

Then you just have those people who let the alcohol drive their life
down (can't make it to work etc) and they are the ones you see
sleeping under bridges.

I have known people in all 3 of those categories and usually other
drugs are involved.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 01:20:09 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 20:27:49 -0400, John H
wrote:

To me, the definition of an alcoholic is simple: If alcohol is causing a chronic problem and the
person continues to drink, then the person's an alcoholic.

I know exactly what you mean by 'binge drinker'.

There are several definitions of alcoholic, depending on who you talk
to.

I simply presented 'my' definition. It's not from any book I know of.

There are 10s of millions of high functioning alcoholics who drink
every day (one of the definitions) but still get to work every day,
perform OK and have no real drama in their life.
These people usually "ration" their intake but it is still a necessary
part of their life.

Does alcohol cause them a problem? If not, then they wouldn't fit my definition of alcoholic.

Another definition is the binge drinker who just can't stop once they
start and that may or may not end well but then they can lay off for
days or even months between binges.

If their binge drinking causes them a problem, and they continue binge drinking, then they'd fit my
definition. If they get drunk, go home and sleep it off with no problem, then they wouldn't fit my
definition.

Then you just have those people who let the alcohol drive their life
down (can't make it to work etc) and they are the ones you see
sleeping under bridges.

Fits my definition, but it doesn't take that serious a problem to fit my definition. To me, if
alcohol is causing marital problems, for example, and the person keeps drinking, then he's an
alcoholic.

I have known people in all 3 of those categories and usually other
drugs are involved.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:56:55 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 01:20:09 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 20:27:49 -0400, John H
wrote:

To me, the definition of an alcoholic is simple: If alcohol is causing a chronic problem and the
person continues to drink, then the person's an alcoholic.

I know exactly what you mean by 'binge drinker'.

There are several definitions of alcoholic, depending on who you talk
to.

I simply presented 'my' definition. It's not from any book I know of.

There are 10s of millions of high functioning alcoholics who drink
every day (one of the definitions) but still get to work every day,
perform OK and have no real drama in their life.
These people usually "ration" their intake but it is still a necessary
part of their life.

Does alcohol cause them a problem? If not, then they wouldn't fit my definition of alcoholic.

Another definition is the binge drinker who just can't stop once they
start and that may or may not end well but then they can lay off for
days or even months between binges.

If their binge drinking causes them a problem, and they continue binge drinking, then they'd fit my
definition. If they get drunk, go home and sleep it off with no problem, then they wouldn't fit my
definition.

Then you just have those people who let the alcohol drive their life
down (can't make it to work etc) and they are the ones you see
sleeping under bridges.

Fits my definition, but it doesn't take that serious a problem to fit my definition. To me, if
alcohol is causing marital problems, for example, and the person keeps drinking, then he's an
alcoholic.

I have known people in all 3 of those categories and usually other
drugs are involved.

These are just some of the accepted definitions. I suppose everyone
has their own that exempts themselves ;-)

I imagine Mrs Harry could give us a more concise definition but this
is from what I have read.

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:56:55 -0400, John H
wrote:

Fits my definition, but it doesn't take that serious a problem to fit my definition. To me, if
alcohol is causing marital problems, for example, and the person keeps drinking, then he's an
alcoholic.

===

My definition is any one of the following:

- Marital problems

- Motor vehicle issues

- Job issues

- Health issues