In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any
boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

Interesting. Were you out demoing that 55 footer, or was it someone
personal boat? If it belonged to someone, did you have the rudeness, and
conviction of opinion, to tell that captain to his face that his boat was
crap? You never answered that original question in you more general
statements, so I am still curious, if the situation presents itself, and
you see somone you don't know, in a bayliner would you (anyone who
dislikes bayliners) call their boat a piece of crap to their face? If
not, why do you (and others) persist in doing it here?

Well at least now your qualifying your so called "facts". I'm not sure
why not keeping up with a smaller boat makes any boat crap, but trust me,
I'll use that later on.

I'll also admit I was wrong, in assuming you have no experience with
Bayliners. Your personal experiences with Bayliner boats were ALL bad.
So now you think Bayliners are crap, that's quite understandable, given
the information you've provided, and if that were the only information you
had available to you, I can see why you present it as fact.

But.... Here's some anectdotal evidence of my own...

In the 2 1/2 seasons I've owned my second hand 17 year old Bayliner I've
logged over 1,000 miles. My trips ranged from 20 to 300 miles in weather
ranging from dead calm to 4-6 foot waves (according to the NWS bulletin
and buoy data). Other than having the Volvo outdrive rebuilt, and a
broken bimini cap, I've had no problems.

Previous to that, I owned a little Bayliner 16 foot cuddy. In the one
season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it. Once again this
vessel has been out in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.
Should you read my other post "A Bayliner Story... ", by your logic of a
smaller boat traveling rough seas faster, proves a larger vessels
inferiority, then my crappy bayliner is better than a 25ft
Lyman/Skiff-Craft, or a 30-35 foot Sedans.

In the 17 years my friend has owned his Bayliner Ciera 2155 it would be a
safe bet that her captain "Thiry Second Pete" (named that because he was
only at his dock for thirty seconds before heading out) has piloted his
"crap" vessel well over 4300 miles. This is a very conservative
estimate. This boat has ferried us from the Port of Lorain to South Bass
island countless times in conditions ranging from still (rarely) up to
8-10 foot seas. I will freely admit the weekend we went out into 8-10's
we put in halfway (about 20 miles) at the Port of Hurom where it continued
to blow out of the North until the following Tuesday forcing us to hitch a
ride back to Pete's marina. Except for mechanical wear and tear, and the
cockpit interior being shot because he never kept his boat covered, the
boat is in fully operational condition. If you knew Pete, you would know
that his "crap Bayliner" did not survive becuase of his dilligent care and
upkeep.

I could cite more anectdotes but I think I've clearly made my point. So
what's my point? The point is that ALL my positive experiences have just
as much weight and bering in reality as all of Harry's negative
experiences, whether you like it or not. AND just as I can't dispute
what Harry's witnessed, Harry cannot dispute what I've witnessed.

And yet inspite of an experience base on Bayliners, that may equal or
surpass your own, I cannot categorically state that Bayliners are worse,
as good, or better than any other boat manufacturer out there. Why?
Because realistically I have not been on every Bayliner, and I have not
been every other boat from every other manufacturer that Bayliners would
compare to, in fact, no one has. Because of this fact, I can never refute
any statement that says "My friends Bayliner is crap". And can only
refute a statement citing "This model of Bayliner is crap" if I have had
experience with that model.

What I can state is "NOT ALL BAYLINERS ARE CRAP", because my personal
experiences have proven that to be true. That statement is not an
inference, it is a truism, something that you cannot dispute without
having absolute experience and expertise on the subject. Harry, and
others who see fit to lump Bayliners into one simple category, when you've
been on every boat of every Bayliner model then you will have the
experience and knowledge to concur with me or dispute me. Until then
you're pretty much just ****ing up a rope, aren't you?

I can't stop you from passing off your opinion as fact, as you've repeated
done in the past. But IMHO it is a narrow-minded, individual who forms an
opinion on a limited ammount of data to make inferences on the
characterisitcs of an entire population, while passing these flawed
inferences off as absolute truths, despite evidence to the contrary. As
for why someone who refuses to acknowledge evidence contray to their
opinion, and modify their opinion, my only guess is their either too
prideful, lazy, or too stupid to adapt in light of new information.

While I have to respect your opinion on Bayliners and understand why you
don't like them, I have no repect for you or anyone who makes claims that
ALL Bayliners are "crap", bashing them at every opportunity as if your
experience equals some undisputed truth.



In which ocean do you boat, Bob?


In answer to you question, I boat on the Great Lakes, Harry. My home port
is out of Ohio, on the south shore of Lake Erie. While I'll freely admit
it's not an ocean, I'd love to see you try to bash or dismiss my boating
environment as limited in challenge or "flat water".

Been out in the Florida Gulf as well, Loved the sailing, hated the
dampness everywhere when the sun set. Might still go back though if I buy
another sailboat.

I


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email sent to will *never* get to me.

Bob D. wrote:

In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any
boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

Interesting. Were you out demoing that 55 footer, or was it someone
personal boat?

Neither.



You never answered that original question in you more general
statements, so I am still curious, if the situation presents itself, and
you see somone you don't know, in a bayliner would you (anyone who
dislikes bayliners) call their boat a piece of crap to their face?


Depends. If it was a little Bayliner and the experienced,
250-miles-a-year-boater was heading out into eight-foot waves, yeah, I'd
probably tell him he had a crappy boat, unsuited for what he was intending.



But.... Here's some anectdotal evidence of my own...

In the 2 1/2 seasons I've owned my second hand 17 year old Bayliner I've
logged over 1,000 miles. My trips ranged from 20 to 300 miles in weather
ranging from dead calm to 4-6 foot waves (according to the NWS bulletin
and buoy data). Other than having the Volvo outdrive rebuilt, and a
broken bimini cap, I've had no problems.

Previous to that, I owned a little Bayliner 16 foot cuddy. In the one
season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it. Once again this
vessel has been out in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.
Should you read my other post "A Bayliner Story... ", by your logic of a
smaller boat traveling rough seas faster, proves a larger vessels
inferiority, then my crappy bayliner is better than a 25ft
Lyman/Skiff-Craft, or a 30-35 foot Sedans.

I don't think your old Bayliner is better, nor would I head out in six
to eight foot waves in my 36' boat, and it is built to take that kind of
stuff. What I think is that you are no brighter than another Bayliner
owner who used to post here and who claimed he took on 30' waves in his
22' Bayliner




I could cite more anectdotes but I think I've clearly made my point. So
what's my point?


That you are a really careless, foolhardy boater? You've convinced me.


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email sent to will *never* get to me.

I don't think your old Bayliner is better, nor would I head out in six
to eight foot waves in my 36' boat, and it is built to take that kind of
stuff. What I think is that you are no brighter than another Bayliner
owner who used to post here and who claimed he took on 30' waves in his
22' Bayliner

Harry, are you that dense to banter back and forth for so long, yet miss
the point of this entire argument? You repeatedly have implied or
directly said that all Bayliners are crap. (You can dispute the
implication all you want, but anyone who will do a google search with
the keywords "Harry Krause Bayliner Wellcraft Chris-Craft Sea Ray" will
have far more negative comments than positive comments, with the vast
majority of those comments directed at Bayliner, affirming you bigoted
actions) I have repeatedly told you I take exception to these comments
you and others so quickly hand out as a mattter of fact.

Anyone with a third grade reading comprehension, would have seen that
I've NEVER argued nor implied that Baylinere are better. I'm not
even saying that Bayliners are as good as any other boat.

My unwavering point is how can ALL bayliners be so bad as to be
deserving of your, and others negative comments, above any other brand?

It is understandable if someone asks what "boat will handle a x
circumstance", merits the reply: "If your taking a boat out in those
circumstances, don't get a Bayliner because (state specific reason)." Of
course this is provided Bayliner tend the only boat with that
shortcomming under those circumstances.

However, you Mr. Krause, among others, are more inclined to answer a
question like "I just bought a new Bayliner besides the mandated USCG
equipment, what other stuff should i get" The most common reply would
be something along the lines of: "A new boat.", a smart ass comment
based solely on the word Bayliner. Not your words per se, but your
general behavior to be sure.

The repeated and unprovoked bashing of the Bayliner name, by yourself
and others, whenever it comes up in this group implies that all Bayliner
are crap no matter what environment there in and no mattter what boat
they are compared to. This begs the question: How can these
Bayliner implications be true if I and others have been able to
repeatedly depended on our Bayliners in rough conditions, refutting them?

I not asking you to change you mind, Harry. I'm simply asking you and
others to open you mind, and take these experiences, which run
contrary to you opinions and experiences into consideration before
dismissing the Bayliner brand is such absolute terms. Bayliners are
not as bad and hated as you make them out to be, no matter how bad you
think they are or how much you dislike them.

Last, if we accept the implication of your statement that I'm a dim
wit, what does the fact that you continously throw negative and
unsubstanciated comments out as fact say about you? What does it say
about you when you have to change the subject, and argue pointless
minutia by taking one sentence out of context within the entire
argument, missing the point of the entire argument with someone you
imply is your subordinate?

I think I need to follow some good advice, end this thread, and get on
with my life. Feel free to take the last word, and live in the delusion
of your absolutism.

Take Care,

Bob Dimond

BOB wrote:


I don't think your old Bayliner is better, nor would I head out in six
to eight foot waves in my 36' boat, and it is built to take that kind of
stuff. What I think is that you are no brighter than another Bayliner
owner who used to post here and who claimed he took on 30' waves in his
22' Bayliner

Harry, are you that dense to banter back and forth for so long, yet miss
the point of this entire argument? You repeatedly have implied or
directly said that all Bayliners are crap.

No, I have not. I don't recall ever saying or implying that. I think
Bayliners are perfectly suitable for protected waters, such as, for
example, Chesapeake Bay, where I do a lot of boating. But I wouldn't go
out in the ocean out of sight of shore in one, nor would I run any of my
favorite (and by that I mean treacherous) ocean inlets in a Bayliner,
any Bayliner.


(You can dispute the
implication all you want, but anyone who will do a google search with
the keywords "Harry Krause Bayliner Wellcraft Chris-Craft Sea Ray" will
have far more negative comments than positive comments, with the vast
majority of those comments directed at Bayliner, affirming you bigoted
actions)

Which means squat, Bob. Really.


I have repeatedly told you I take exception to these comments
you and others so quickly hand out as a mattter of fact.

Take all the exception you want, Bob. Makes no difference to me.


However, you Mr. Krause, among others, are more inclined to answer a
question like "I just bought a new Bayliner besides the mandated USCG
equipment, what other stuff should i get" The most common reply would
be something along the lines of: "A new boat.", a smart ass comment
based solely on the word Bayliner. Not your words per se, but your
general behavior to be sure.


Hey, Bob...you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how far from
reality it is. Go for it, eh?


The repeated and unprovoked bashing of the Bayliner name, by yourself
and others, whenever it comes up in this group implies that all Bayliner
are crap no matter what environment there in and no mattter what boat
they are compared to. This begs the question: How can these
Bayliner implications be true if I and others have been able to
repeatedly depended on our Bayliners in rough conditions, refutting them?

You've disputed, Bob; you haven't refuted. Look up the words.

What does it say
about you when you have to change the subject, and argue pointless
minutia by taking one sentence out of context within the entire
argument, missing the point of the entire argument with someone you
imply is your subordinate?


Beauty is in the details, Bob, no matter how minute.



I think I need to follow some good advice, end this thread, and get on
with my life. Feel free to take the last word, and live in the delusion
of your absolutism.


I'd be glad to grant you absolution, Bob, but I can't find my robe.




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email sent to will *never* get to me.