In article , "jps" wrote:

"Bob D." wrote in message
...

I have no doubt that you will find some Bayliners that are indeed a POS,
but that can easily be said for any boat that was neglected by its
previous owner.

But if it starts out as a Bayliner, improvements are equal to turd
polishing.


Hmmmm... My fearless foe's vast wit puzzles me. I better run that witty
reparte through my patented OGHMBHC (Our Gang He Man Bayliner Haters Club)
Translator:

"Bayliner Baaaad, My boat Gooood"

Ahhh yes, now I understand.

Have a hard look at the materials and contruction of Bayliner boats and
you'll notice they're just like churned out Chevys. That may be fine for
the road, not my choice for water.

Taking a "hard look" at a finished boat does not necessarily mean squat to
me. I for one do not pretend to be a materials engineer, structural
engineer, marine engineer, or even a certified marine mechanic. I cannot
infer that something on the whole is a POS just because something doesn't
look right in the fit and finish category.

Or perhaps I misunderstood you. Was your "hard look" taken at the
Brunswick Corp plant where Bayliners are produced? If so, I'm curious
did you visit a competitors plant for comparison? At the very least, can
you be more specific?

Well I can see its time for OGHMBHC translator again:

"Bayliner Baaaad, My boat Gooood"

Ahhh yes, now I understand.

The fact that you view Bayliners as the Chevrolet of boats is about the
only remark to your argument that has any bite. Bayliner, and its parent
corp Brunswick, are probably the largest manufacturer of powerboats in the
world. This might equate to Chevy and its parent corp GM in the
Automotive industry. In addition, I respect your opinion on not wanting
to chose the Chevy of boats, just as many people would choose a Cadillac
over a Chevrolet. But, using your chevy analogy, inferring that a Chevy
Cavalier is a POS but a Cadillac Cimmaron is not would mark the zenith of
stupidity.

I'm not trying to start an argument, in fact, I think I should concede
that of the boats I've looked at sometimes, the Bayliners fit and finish
is not always measure up to a comparable boat. But it seems to me that
the price difference between these comparable boats often more than makes
up for what the Bayliner lacks in fit and finish or extras. It might be
just me but for a $8000 - $10000 difference in the price of a 28 foot boat
of comparable specifications, I would think that one could easily take
care of the fit and finish or other small problems, and have money to
spare, so how does that qualify the Bayliner brand to be a POS?

So for Harry, NYOB, Greg O, and all the people in this group who insist on
dismissing Bayliner as anyone choice of boat I humbly ask:

How did Bayliner specifically deserve this reputation, was it earned from
personal experience?

Since its only Bayliner that seems to be singled out, does that mean all
other boat manufactures are okay? What about Sea Rays?

Oh and when answering these questions, how about giving me some empirical
data instead of a narrow-minded smart ass remark, okay?

Unfortunately I don't have some people's super human power of arrogance.
So I cannot say that bayliner is better or worse than any other boat,
because quite frankly, I DON'T KNOW. All I have are my meager experiences
aboard several Bayliners. One Bayliner (Ciera) belongs to a friend who
bought the boat new in 1986 and we traveled on average 50 miles each
weeked for a period of five years and then 30 miles each weekend for the
last 12 years. Those trips were made on Lake Erie in all types of
weather from dead calm to 8-10 foot seas (that only happened once, thank
god). My first powerboat was a 16 ft Bayliner Cuddy. I probably put
more miles on that boat in one Ohio season than most people put on a boat
in Florida all year. We survived 6-8 foot seas in that boat. It wasn't
plesant, but the boat made it and I never felt endangered. My last
bayliner rode through rough seas better than the larger boat I use today.
All in all I've had pretty good experiences with bayliner boats. Were my
experience perfect with Bayliners? Hell No. Would I ever overlook them
because of my experiences? Hell no.

In contrast, I've known people who bought the "better" boats and still had
problems. Case in point I had a girlfirend who bought a brand new 2000
Four Winns 27 footer. Besides having a layout that was unsuitable for
cruising (a matter of taste). There was no way to keep the cushions on
the convertable Vee berth. The stereo radios would not work, when the
shorepower was plugged in, due to interferrance. Both the dealer and
manufacturer told them there was nothing they could do. When I first
looked at her boat I pointed out the the flush mount using a gasket
without a lip was a point of failure. Sure enough, within its first
season that gasket faileed and water was leaking in the cabin.
Friends of my father have a 45 foot Californian, thay bought for
$400,000. The boat has a beautiful wet bar on the back deck, complete
with a refidgerator. They don't use the fridge, why? Because the refer
door faces AFT!!!

Obviously I've droned on long enough so I better use the patented BDITLW
(Bob Dimond is too Long Winded) Translator:

"All boats baaaaaad, all boats gooood"

Whether it's a multimillion dollar Parker 25 Wunderbot, a 16 foot Bayliner
or anything in between. My experiece forms my opinion that accross the
board the Marine industry fails to deliver the quality and value that a
consumer should expect for their money. That means in some way they're
all pieces of ****. To actually single one brand out is arrogance. To
single it out without personal experience or statistics is IMHO pure
stupidity.

Bob Dimond

"Bob D." wrote in message
...
In article , "jps"
wrote:

You should consider hooking up with Karen. You two could have incredibly
long-winded discussions on the merits of boat building.

My *opinion* is based on having observed Bayliner workmanship and materials
on many of their boats. Like any manufacturer of a production vessel,
decisions are made based on meeting the expectations of the customers. In
order to make a competitively priced product, the product must be
manufactured efficiently and sometimes with inferior materials. For the
manufacturer, that's the beauty of a production boat, economies of scale
have an effect on the company's bottom line and they can capture a
significant market share because of the marketability (price) of the vessel.
They have their market niche and many people enjoy their products. That's
why they changed the name of their larger vessels. They do not have a good
reputation in the higher dollar market because people expect fit and finish
and good materials.

The Bayliner Chevy is not the kind of craftsmanship I admire nor the kind of
product I'm eager to own. And, I'm not playing the "my boat's better than
yours" game because there are plenty of boats built better than the one I
own.

So there!

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

And you'll discover that the boat "designed for ocean use" is probably superior
to *any* boat designed primarily for inland waters or freshwater lakes.

Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

In which ocean do you boat, Bob?



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Alright Alright already so I'm long winded. Sorry. Hopefully what
follows it's an intersting read with SOME value. Also, ignore the
spelling, I'm in a hurry and typing with my toes today :^)


I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

Also can you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

First of specifically what two boats are you comparing? Second, What does
it mean? Will someone going 30 miles off shore on a Bayliner perish? Will
someone going 30 miles off shore in a Bayliner automatically come back and
renounce the Bayliner name and pledge their allegiance to Parker boats
forever?

I honestly don't know what you mean, because, standing by itself without
context, you've presented a senseless statement with ABSOLUTELY NO
MEANING. It's like debating with a ****ed off ten year old:

"Oh yeah? I'll show you! You just try to take that Bayliner thirty miles
off shore. Go on, I dare you!"

Without knowing what consequnces you are inferring, perhaps I should just
count my blessings when I went 300 miles on my Bayliner accross Lake Erie,
accross Lake St. Clair and into Lake Huron, where I was more than thiry
miles off shore on quite a few occasions. I'm not a gambling man, but
I'd bet other Bayliner owners could make better claims.

This ambiguous statement not only reeks of arrogance, but suggests you are
a prejudiced person. I used the term prejudice in referring to your
closed minded
disdain for Bayliners above all other boats. It doesn't matter what the
facts are or how many thousands of people enjoy their Bayliners. It
doesn't matter if Bayliners have repeatedly go thirty miles off shore for
a decade. To you, Bayliners suck, Bayliners will always suck, and despite
any proof to the contrary you will tell people bayliners suck, not as your
unfounded opinion, but as a matter of fact. My guess is you do this
because your foolish pride will never allow you to admit otherwise.
Prejudice and closed mindedness behaviours are usually well gounded in
one's insecurity, I pitty that flaw in a person.

And for the record, I don't really care if you or others think Bayliners,
Chris-Crafts or any other boat sucks as long as you:

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence


You repeatedly do neither, and that offends me, Sir. You and others who
repeatedly and haphazzardly bash bayliners, any other boat, or person,
without good reason, and without one iota of constructive advice, are in
my humble opinion, are acting in rude and irresponsible manner.

Obviously it's rude because telling any captain their boat sucks
encroaches on a personal attack. No matter what walk of life we come
from, or what type of vessels we own, the majority of boaters take some
pride in the vessel they own. We refer to vessels as "she" as they are
close in our hearts. Just like we take pride in our houses. My hats goes
off to you, Harry, or anyone else, that can honestly say you would not be
offended if someone said "Your boat sucks" or someone walked into your
house and said "Geez what a dump". Quite frankly, I wonder if you or
others who act the same way would display this same rudeness you've shown
in this group in person. If we met face to face would you have the guts
to tell me my boat sucks in the same "matter of fact" fashion? If so, my
hat goes off to you again, for remaining steadfast in your personal,
albeit prejudiced, convictions. If not, I pitty you.

This type of bashing is irresponsible because the people posting are a
small percentage of the people reading this group. Bashing ANY boat or
person without qualifying your remarks, has consequences to the people who
MAY take these comments at face value. There may be other Bayliner
owners out there who are now unwilling to post a serious question because
they do not wish to be ridiculed by a group of assholes. There have been
examples be new boaters out there who post to this group looking for
advice while sharing their first time boating experiences who get slapped
down like a fly on a picnic table without any constructive advice, by
people basking in their anonmynity (sp?) who wouldn't dare act in this
manner in person. There may have been people who still have not become
boaters because that affordable Bayliner was so badly renounced that they
passed it up without looking to see if it would suit their needs.

It is really sad, because as arrogant as Harry and many members of this
group are, I feel they still may have very valuable information to impart
from their knowledge and experiences. Unfortunately it may not reach the
people who need it because they are too intimidated. Intimated because a
small group of people decided too make rec.boats first and foremost a
****ing contest. Too bad.

Bob Dimond

It makes as much sense as saying "If you can't afford a BMW you should not
drive". It isn't worth your time getting upset about a few old men who
live their life in rec.boats.




"Bob D." wrote in message
...
Alright Alright already so I'm long winded. Sorry. Hopefully what
follows it's an intersting read with SOME value. Also, ignore the
spelling, I'm in a hurry and typing with my toes today :^)


I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat
of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

Also can you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

First of specifically what two boats are you comparing? Second, What does
it mean? Will someone going 30 miles off shore on a Bayliner perish? Will
someone going 30 miles off shore in a Bayliner automatically come back and
renounce the Bayliner name and pledge their allegiance to Parker boats
forever?

I honestly don't know what you mean, because, standing by itself without
context, you've presented a senseless statement with ABSOLUTELY NO
MEANING. It's like debating with a ****ed off ten year old:

"Oh yeah? I'll show you! You just try to take that Bayliner thirty miles
off shore. Go on, I dare you!"

Without knowing what consequnces you are inferring, perhaps I should just
count my blessings when I went 300 miles on my Bayliner accross Lake Erie,
accross Lake St. Clair and into Lake Huron, where I was more than thiry
miles off shore on quite a few occasions. I'm not a gambling man, but
I'd bet other Bayliner owners could make better claims.

This ambiguous statement not only reeks of arrogance, but suggests you are
a prejudiced person. I used the term prejudice in referring to your
closed minded
disdain for Bayliners above all other boats. It doesn't matter what the
facts are or how many thousands of people enjoy their Bayliners. It
doesn't matter if Bayliners have repeatedly go thirty miles off shore for
a decade. To you, Bayliners suck, Bayliners will always suck, and despite
any proof to the contrary you will tell people bayliners suck, not as your
unfounded opinion, but as a matter of fact. My guess is you do this
because your foolish pride will never allow you to admit otherwise.
Prejudice and closed mindedness behaviours are usually well gounded in
one's insecurity, I pitty that flaw in a person.

And for the record, I don't really care if you or others think Bayliners,
Chris-Crafts or any other boat sucks as long as you:

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of
evidence


You repeatedly do neither, and that offends me, Sir. You and others who
repeatedly and haphazzardly bash bayliners, any other boat, or person,
without good reason, and without one iota of constructive advice, are in
my humble opinion, are acting in rude and irresponsible manner.

Obviously it's rude because telling any captain their boat sucks
encroaches on a personal attack. No matter what walk of life we come
from, or what type of vessels we own, the majority of boaters take some
pride in the vessel they own. We refer to vessels as "she" as they are
close in our hearts. Just like we take pride in our houses. My hats goes
off to you, Harry, or anyone else, that can honestly say you would not be
offended if someone said "Your boat sucks" or someone walked into your
house and said "Geez what a dump". Quite frankly, I wonder if you or
others who act the same way would display this same rudeness you've shown
in this group in person. If we met face to face would you have the guts
to tell me my boat sucks in the same "matter of fact" fashion? If so, my
hat goes off to you again, for remaining steadfast in your personal,
albeit prejudiced, convictions. If not, I pitty you.

This type of bashing is irresponsible because the people posting are a
small percentage of the people reading this group. Bashing ANY boat or
person without qualifying your remarks, has consequences to the people who
MAY take these comments at face value. There may be other Bayliner
owners out there who are now unwilling to post a serious question because
they do not wish to be ridiculed by a group of assholes. There have been
examples be new boaters out there who post to this group looking for
advice while sharing their first time boating experiences who get slapped
down like a fly on a picnic table without any constructive advice, by
people basking in their anonmynity (sp?) who wouldn't dare act in this
manner in person. There may have been people who still have not become
boaters because that affordable Bayliner was so badly renounced that they
passed it up without looking to see if it would suit their needs.

It is really sad, because as arrogant as Harry and many members of this
group are, I feel they still may have very valuable information to impart
from their knowledge and experiences. Unfortunately it may not reach the
people who need it because they are too intimidated. Intimated because a
small group of people decided too make rec.boats first and foremost a
****ing contest. Too bad.

Bob Dimond

Bob D. wrote:
Alright Alright already so I'm long winded. Sorry. Hopefully what
follows it's an intersting read with SOME value. Also, ignore the
spelling, I'm in a hurry and typing with my toes today :^)


I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

I seem to infer? I inferred no such thing. There are lots of crappy boats.



Also can you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

I've seen Bayliners in rough water pop the rivets that hold their hulls
and decks together. I've seen Bayliners with plain, untreated plywood
behind seat cushions. I've seen Bayliners where the hullsides and botton
"tin can" in moderate seas.

I wouldn't go out of sight of land in a Bayliner, much less 30 miles
offshore.

What's *your* boating experience, Bob? Mine goes back more than 50 years.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Bob, with all due respect, you're sounding almost as religious and
fanatical as the anti-Bayliner faction. The facts are that you're
happy with you're Bayliner and it serves you're purposes and the type
of boating you like to do. That's wonderful. I've never owned one
but there is clearly a place for them in the market. It's also a
general truism however that most Bayliners have no business offshore,
especially in salt water. They weren't made for it, and it's not
really debatable except among fanatics or the uninformed.

==============================================

On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:49:59 -0400, (Bob
D.) wrote:

Alright Alright already so I'm long winded. Sorry. Hopefully what
follows it's an intersting read with SOME value. Also, ignore the
spelling, I'm in a hurry and typing with my toes today :^)


I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

Also can you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

First of specifically what two boats are you comparing? Second, What does
it mean? Will someone going 30 miles off shore on a Bayliner perish? Will
someone going 30 miles off shore in a Bayliner automatically come back and
renounce the Bayliner name and pledge their allegiance to Parker boats
forever?

I honestly don't know what you mean, because, standing by itself without
context, you've presented a senseless statement with ABSOLUTELY NO
MEANING. It's like debating with a ****ed off ten year old:

"Oh yeah? I'll show you! You just try to take that Bayliner thirty miles
off shore. Go on, I dare you!"

Without knowing what consequnces you are inferring, perhaps I should just
count my blessings when I went 300 miles on my Bayliner accross Lake Erie,
accross Lake St. Clair and into Lake Huron, where I was more than thiry
miles off shore on quite a few occasions. I'm not a gambling man, but
I'd bet other Bayliner owners could make better claims.

This ambiguous statement not only reeks of arrogance, but suggests you are
a prejudiced person. I used the term prejudice in referring to your
closed minded
disdain for Bayliners above all other boats. It doesn't matter what the
facts are or how many thousands of people enjoy their Bayliners. It
doesn't matter if Bayliners have repeatedly go thirty miles off shore for
a decade. To you, Bayliners suck, Bayliners will always suck, and despite
any proof to the contrary you will tell people bayliners suck, not as your
unfounded opinion, but as a matter of fact. My guess is you do this
because your foolish pride will never allow you to admit otherwise.
Prejudice and closed mindedness behaviours are usually well gounded in
one's insecurity, I pitty that flaw in a person.

And for the record, I don't really care if you or others think Bayliners,
Chris-Crafts or any other boat sucks as long as you:

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence


You repeatedly do neither, and that offends me, Sir. You and others who
repeatedly and haphazzardly bash bayliners, any other boat, or person,
without good reason, and without one iota of constructive advice, are in
my humble opinion, are acting in rude and irresponsible manner.

Obviously it's rude because telling any captain their boat sucks
encroaches on a personal attack. No matter what walk of life we come
from, or what type of vessels we own, the majority of boaters take some
pride in the vessel they own. We refer to vessels as "she" as they are
close in our hearts. Just like we take pride in our houses. My hats goes
off to you, Harry, or anyone else, that can honestly say you would not be
offended if someone said "Your boat sucks" or someone walked into your
house and said "Geez what a dump". Quite frankly, I wonder if you or
others who act the same way would display this same rudeness you've shown
in this group in person. If we met face to face would you have the guts
to tell me my boat sucks in the same "matter of fact" fashion? If so, my
hat goes off to you again, for remaining steadfast in your personal,
albeit prejudiced, convictions. If not, I pitty you.

This type of bashing is irresponsible because the people posting are a
small percentage of the people reading this group. Bashing ANY boat or
person without qualifying your remarks, has consequences to the people who
MAY take these comments at face value. There may be other Bayliner
owners out there who are now unwilling to post a serious question because
they do not wish to be ridiculed by a group of assholes. There have been
examples be new boaters out there who post to this group looking for
advice while sharing their first time boating experiences who get slapped
down like a fly on a picnic table without any constructive advice, by
people basking in their anonmynity (sp?) who wouldn't dare act in this
manner in person. There may have been people who still have not become
boaters because that affordable Bayliner was so badly renounced that they
passed it up without looking to see if it would suit their needs.

It is really sad, because as arrogant as Harry and many members of this
group are, I feel they still may have very valuable information to impart
from their knowledge and experiences. Unfortunately it may not reach the
people who need it because they are too intimidated. Intimated because a
small group of people decided too make rec.boats first and foremost a
****ing contest. Too bad.

Bob Dimond