Bob D. wrote:
Alright Alright already so I'm long winded. Sorry. Hopefully what
follows it's an intersting read with SOME value. Also, ignore the
spelling, I'm in a hurry and typing with my toes today :^)


I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

I seem to infer? I inferred no such thing. There are lots of crappy boats.



Also can you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

I'll not bother to cite more than a couple of examples. I have a friend
with a 2003 Bayliner Trophy 25' walkaround. We frequently ride out
together to fish, each in our own boats, and sometimes together in one
boat. Last time we chatted, couple of weeks ago, he had 50 hours or so
on the engine. The boat is falling apart. The windshield frame has
broken off the cabin top in three places. He's had shorts in the
factory-installed wiring harness. A hatch cover has broken off its
hinges. He's got hairline cracks in the rounded inside corners of his
hull. The boat pounds badly in the typical Chesapeake Bay chop, and when
he trims the engine in enough and drops the tabs to make the chop
tolerable, the boat buries her bow. The boat won't back down in a
straight line. The seams on the cabin cushions are unraveling.

I'm sure his list is longer by now. It's been a few more weeks.

I've seen Bayliners in rough water pop the rivets that hold their hulls
and decks together. I've seen Bayliners with plain, untreated plywood
behind seat cushions. I've seen Bayliners where the hullsides and botton
"tin can" in moderate seas.

I wouldn't go out of sight of land in a Bayliner, much less 30 miles
offshore.

What's *your* boating experience, Bob? Mine goes back more than 50 years.



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

jps wrote:
"Bill Cole" wrote in message
news:iu%eb.660374$YN5.506645@sccrnsc01...

I hate to say
this but if you want to discuss boats, rec.boats is not a good place to do
so. It was taken over by the extremist a long time ago.


Why don't you point out your latest boating related post here Bill?

Or, as you stated previously, do you post to boating related threads under
another of your other right-wing monikers?

You're a freakin' gas bag.



Why do you waste a second of your day reading Cole? He's in my, you'll
excuse the expression, passover list. He used to post here under another
name, btw. Skipper picked on him.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

On 2 Oct 2003 19:18:18 GMT, (Karl Denninger)
wrote:
Not all of it.

Some is installed floating over a vapor barrier, and is rated for kitchens
and bathrooms.

If the right kind of this stuff was used, it'll be wonderful. I put it in
my Hatt's galley (ripping out the crap linoleum that was original - now THAT
was work as that WAS glued down!) and its done great - and we usually DIVE
the boat, so it gets LOTS of water tracked through it.
================================================== =

Karl, I'm interested in hearing more about what you used and how it
was installed. Name of product? Where purchased? Thickness?
Dimensions? Installation process? etc.

Thanks

Bob, with all due respect, you're sounding almost as religious and
fanatical as the anti-Bayliner faction. The facts are that you're
happy with you're Bayliner and it serves you're purposes and the type
of boating you like to do. That's wonderful. I've never owned one
but there is clearly a place for them in the market. It's also a
general truism however that most Bayliners have no business offshore,
especially in salt water. They weren't made for it, and it's not
really debatable except among fanatics or the uninformed.

==============================================

On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:49:59 -0400, (Bob
D.) wrote:

Alright Alright already so I'm long winded. Sorry. Hopefully what
follows it's an intersting read with SOME value. Also, ignore the
spelling, I'm in a hurry and typing with my toes today :^)


I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

Alright Harry, I'll bite. So according to your statement the evidence
that Bayliners are inferior is cannot travel thiry miles off shore? What
about a Wellcraft? How about an old favorite of mine, a Jersey? Of all
the boats made, you seem to infer that Bayliner are the only ones that
cannot travel off shore so they are the only ones you'll label as
inferior?

Also can you be more specific in your statement "Oh? Try going 30 miles
offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar sized designed for ocean
use."?

First of specifically what two boats are you comparing? Second, What does
it mean? Will someone going 30 miles off shore on a Bayliner perish? Will
someone going 30 miles off shore in a Bayliner automatically come back and
renounce the Bayliner name and pledge their allegiance to Parker boats
forever?

I honestly don't know what you mean, because, standing by itself without
context, you've presented a senseless statement with ABSOLUTELY NO
MEANING. It's like debating with a ****ed off ten year old:

"Oh yeah? I'll show you! You just try to take that Bayliner thirty miles
off shore. Go on, I dare you!"

Without knowing what consequnces you are inferring, perhaps I should just
count my blessings when I went 300 miles on my Bayliner accross Lake Erie,
accross Lake St. Clair and into Lake Huron, where I was more than thiry
miles off shore on quite a few occasions. I'm not a gambling man, but
I'd bet other Bayliner owners could make better claims.

This ambiguous statement not only reeks of arrogance, but suggests you are
a prejudiced person. I used the term prejudice in referring to your
closed minded
disdain for Bayliners above all other boats. It doesn't matter what the
facts are or how many thousands of people enjoy their Bayliners. It
doesn't matter if Bayliners have repeatedly go thirty miles off shore for
a decade. To you, Bayliners suck, Bayliners will always suck, and despite
any proof to the contrary you will tell people bayliners suck, not as your
unfounded opinion, but as a matter of fact. My guess is you do this
because your foolish pride will never allow you to admit otherwise.
Prejudice and closed mindedness behaviours are usually well gounded in
one's insecurity, I pitty that flaw in a person.

And for the record, I don't really care if you or others think Bayliners,
Chris-Crafts or any other boat sucks as long as you:

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence


You repeatedly do neither, and that offends me, Sir. You and others who
repeatedly and haphazzardly bash bayliners, any other boat, or person,
without good reason, and without one iota of constructive advice, are in
my humble opinion, are acting in rude and irresponsible manner.

Obviously it's rude because telling any captain their boat sucks
encroaches on a personal attack. No matter what walk of life we come
from, or what type of vessels we own, the majority of boaters take some
pride in the vessel they own. We refer to vessels as "she" as they are
close in our hearts. Just like we take pride in our houses. My hats goes
off to you, Harry, or anyone else, that can honestly say you would not be
offended if someone said "Your boat sucks" or someone walked into your
house and said "Geez what a dump". Quite frankly, I wonder if you or
others who act the same way would display this same rudeness you've shown
in this group in person. If we met face to face would you have the guts
to tell me my boat sucks in the same "matter of fact" fashion? If so, my
hat goes off to you again, for remaining steadfast in your personal,
albeit prejudiced, convictions. If not, I pitty you.

This type of bashing is irresponsible because the people posting are a
small percentage of the people reading this group. Bashing ANY boat or
person without qualifying your remarks, has consequences to the people who
MAY take these comments at face value. There may be other Bayliner
owners out there who are now unwilling to post a serious question because
they do not wish to be ridiculed by a group of assholes. There have been
examples be new boaters out there who post to this group looking for
advice while sharing their first time boating experiences who get slapped
down like a fly on a picnic table without any constructive advice, by
people basking in their anonmynity (sp?) who wouldn't dare act in this
manner in person. There may have been people who still have not become
boaters because that affordable Bayliner was so badly renounced that they
passed it up without looking to see if it would suit their needs.

It is really sad, because as arrogant as Harry and many members of this
group are, I feel they still may have very valuable information to impart
from their knowledge and experiences. Unfortunately it may not reach the
people who need it because they are too intimidated. Intimated because a
small group of people decided too make rec.boats first and foremost a
****ing contest. Too bad.

Bob Dimond

There are others who feel the same as you, rest assured.

For some of them, the typical contribution is a one-line insult.

On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 19:29:54 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Skipper picked on him.

===================

Skipper who?

Skipper is my little buddy. Harry is upset because he doesn't have my
little buddy to kick around anymore.


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 19:29:54 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Skipper picked on him.

===================

Skipper who?

"Bill Cole" wrote in message
. net...
Yeah, so what is your point? If you don't like my bs, don't post your bs.
Have you noticed, I don't post right or left wing crap, I only point out
the
fallacy in yours posts because you are so easy. You assume I am right
wing.
Your assumption is wrong.

You've already said you're a fiscal conservative and a social moderate.

That adds up to right wing tool.

You're a whitey righty.

(Bob D.) wrote in message ...

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence

Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key
West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner.

Good luck, there aren't any.

I guess it's the "opinion" of these charter Capt's, who are on the
water everyday possible, that Bayliner is not their 1st, 2nd, 3rd,
4th, ect, ect, "choice" if you look at brands of boats in use for that
kind of activity.

Oh, and take a look at this thread:

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=107267

Hardcore offshore and inshore FL fishermen and, the last time I
checked, over 170 different boats pictured. (note to self: get a pic
of the boat on there to bolster the Whaler fleet)

What a surprise, looks like Bayliner is "missing in action", once
again.

Wouldn't you've expected a better showing from such a "popular" brand
of boat?

So, where do I see Bayliners? Bee-bopping up and down the ICW on
weekends, picnicing on sandbars/spoil islands and, looking like they
are having a real good time doing so. They're all over the place.

Which is exactly where and, doing exactly what, they were "designed"
for.

Some of us, however, are a bit more demanding.
--
SJM

"Bill Cole" wrote in message news:iu%eb.660374$YN5.506645@sccrnsc01...
No one takes Harry, jps, or basskisser seriously. Gould who is
knowledgeable on boats has come to Bayliners defense many times, his words
are of more value than all of the silly bashing that goes on. I hate to say
this but if you want to discuss boats, rec.boats is not a good place to do
so. It was taken over by the extremist a long time ago.

So, let's see, Skipper Bill Cole, anybody that doesn't agree with you,
can't be taken seriously, huh? Gould can here, because he sometimes
defends Bayliner? You sound like some old shriveled up man. *If you
don't agree with me, you are just.....wrong, sonny!* The truly
ignorant are, indeed, one sided and narrow minded.