"Bob D." wrote in message
...



Well, I fished off the Georgia-Florida Coast for six years, several
times a week and at least one day on the weekend (unless the weather was
horrible), and in the ICW and so forth, and in all those years, I saw
one Bayliner Trophy engaged in offshore fishing. In fact, I knew the
owner of that boat. I generally fished from the St. Mary's River in
Georgia down past St. Augustine in Florida, an area with, literally,
thousands of small fishing boats and hundreds of larger ones. I don't
even see that many Bayliner Trophies on Chesapeake Bay, although I do
see plenty of Bayliners.



I have absolutly no problem with that statement. But, let's be honest,
Harry, because you didn't see them does that really mean that they don't
exist?

Let's not get too existential in here, eh?

It is one thing to state "in all those years, I saw one Bayliner Trophy
engaged in offshore fishing" It's quite another thing to state there is
not ONE Trophy used for charter in 500 miles of developed coastline, as
Scott has directly stated.

There was one Bayliner Trophy used by a near-shore charter captain out of
Jax. The only one I ever saw in all the years I fished that area.

My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't
unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic
purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific
application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are
probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out.

Why not? I've been aboard enough Bayliner Trophy boats to form an opinion
about them.


But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion
that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so
globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the
past, that all.

Indeed, some Bayliners have worked their way up to mediocre.

Bob, I have no interest in "all" Bayliners or even very many of them.
I have looked over the Trophies extensively over the years and determined
their shortcomings are such I would not want one.

Most of the larger non-Trophy Bayliners do not even slightly interest me,
because they are too underpowered, too flat-bottomed, powered with I/O's,.
have small fuel tanks, and so forth and so on. And I haven't addressed
qualitative issues.

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:34:21 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

If it isn't the right kind of plywood, it could be a problem, even if it
is encapsulated.

===================================

Absolutely right, marine plywood is built with higher grade wood,
minimal voids in the plies, and with better glue. Surprisingly
enough, that costs more.

Harry Krause wrote in message ...
scottht wrote:

Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners
here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I
frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner is
to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose.



I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound
like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I
don't believe you can fool the laws of physics.

There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound.
Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets.

My argument with Scott, you or anyone, isn't that Bayliner isn't
unpopular, or is best choice for a specific region or for a spefic
purpose. I argue that if a Bayliner model is not suited for a specific
application, their are other comparable models from other brands that are
probably unsuitable as well. As such Bayliner should not be singled out.

Why not? I've been aboard enough Bayliner Trophy boats to form an opinion
about them.


Since you commented on my statement, I will refer to the same statement.
Do you mean to tell me oof ALL the current brands of comparable boats ONLY
BAYLINER TROPHIES are unsuitable enough to merit bad remarks? If the
answer is "no" then:

Why do you insist on singling out Bayliner?

Why do you think that citing only the shortcommings of Bayliner boats,
overlooking the shortcomming of other brands, is unbiased?

If you answer is "yes" and you've never seen quality problems in ANY other
brands you've boarded (and I would find that hard to believe), then
perhaps you do have a point in your remarks. That point is that your
experince indicates only Bayliner that is crap. But the other point may
be, you don't have the experience to say all other brands AREN'T crap.

So if you wrongly single out Bayliners, then your behaving in a
irresponsible bigoted manner. For reasonable people that should be reason
enough why you should not continue. Obviously it's still your choice
though.


But I think you and others should give due consideration to my assertion
that not all Bayliners are "bad", therefore Bayliners should not be so
globally maligned, without provocation as you and others have done in the
past, that all.

Indeed, some Bayliners have worked their way up to mediocre.


Indeed. Which Bayliners Harry? In what context (boating environment) are
you referring to where these select few have "achieved" your elevated
status of mediocrity? Specifically, in what way did these boats
differentiate themselves from other boats in the brand?

Once again, in lieu of a reasonable statement, you throw out a smart ass
comment like this and expect people to just take it at face value? You
make this comment and really believe that you "never infered all Bayliners
are "crap""?

You need to spend a little less time being "clever" at Bayliners expense,
and a little more time taking what you write into consideration.

Bob, I have no interest in "all" Bayliners or even very many of them.
I have looked over the Trophies extensively over the years and determined
their shortcomings are such I would not want one.


Okay, that's understandable. IMHO you've made a perfectly resonable statement.

Most of the larger non-Trophy Bayliners do not even slightly interest me,
because they are too underpowered, too flat-bottomed, powered with I/O's,.
have small fuel tanks, and so forth and so on. And I haven't addressed
qualitative issues.

IMHO that is a somewhat unreasonable statement, because you are now citing
shortcomings that are widely known over a variety of boat brands, but
sticking the Bayliner name with the blame. If ONLY Bayliner were guilty
of these shortcomings listed, it would be a reasonable statement. But
I've seen examples that this is not even remotely the case. This, and
alot of other statements you've made in the past, tend to hold only
Bayliner accountable for common practices throughout the industry.
HONESTLY Harry, you don't see this pattern with your posts? You HONESTLY
think you give Bayliners a fair shake in ALL of your comments?

We've seen many reasonable statements and anectodotal evidence as why
Bayliners does not merit first consideration from many boaters. Some of
those statements were made by you. In this thread, I've tried not to
argue against any reasonable statement.

In contrast, I've made, and seen reasonable statements and anectdotal
evidence of Bayliners being used and enjoyed for many power boating
applications. If we take both viewpoints at face value, it is a
reasonable inference that not all Bayliners are universally "bad" for
every application.

In light of this, people who feel the need to continue, to contradict this
inferred truism, by belittling this brand name in global terms, without
clarification or facts, and without provocation, are IMHO acting in a rude
manner, doing a disservice to the rec.boats community as a whole, and
should be dismissed as:

Boating snobs, who derive security in the "us vs. them" mentality.

Little trolls, who take some perverse pleasure in inciting disharmony.

Just plain ignorant, being either, too stupid, too lazy ,or small minded,
to take any contradictory evidence into consideration.

We're arguing Baliners here, but I feel this scales well to anyone making
absolute statements, bashing any boat or person.

Bob Dimond

Hmmm.... I never thought of that. Seems right to me. Curious, within
Non-Marine Plywood are there different grades? Just wondering...



On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:34:21 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

If it isn't the right kind of plywood, it could be a problem, even if it
is encapsulated.

===================================

Absolutely right, marine plywood is built with higher grade wood,
minimal voids in the plies, and with better glue. Surprisingly
enough, that costs more.

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
Harry Krause wrote in message
...
scottht wrote:

Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners
here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I
frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner
is
to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose.



I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound
like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I
don't believe you can fool the laws of physics.

There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound.
Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets.


I'm sure, but I don't know enough about the physics of accoustics to
understand how a tiny speaker can move the air necessary to create the low
sounds found in the serious music I enjoy. As an example, I have an old
Hammond B3, with a Leslie speaker. It's a fine electronic organ, though
certainly not state of the art. I can make it emulate a pipe organ, and it
sounds fine doing so. But it doesn't sound like anything Dirk Flentrop
built.

And won't come close to anything that Hope Jones built

Harry Krause wrote:

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

Harry Krause wrote in message

...

scottht wrote:


Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners
here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I
frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner

is

to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose.



I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound
like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I
don't believe you can fool the laws of physics.

There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound.
Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets.



I'm sure, but I don't know enough about the physics of accoustics to
understand how a tiny speaker can move the air necessary to create the low
sounds found in the serious music I enjoy. As an example, I have an old
Hammond B3, with a Leslie speaker. It's a fine electronic organ, though
certainly not state of the art. I can make it emulate a pipe organ, and it
sounds fine doing so. But it doesn't sound like anything Dirk Flentrop
built.

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:54:26 -0400, (Bob
D.) wrote:
Curious, within
Non-Marine Plywood are there different grades? Just wondering...

================================================== ===

Many different grades, depending on appearance and intended purpose.

Here are some basics:

http://www.awi-wa.com/_hidden/T_APA%...%20GRADING.htm

"Harry Krause" wrote in message ...
"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
Harry Krause wrote in message
...
scottht wrote:

Wow, this is one tough crowd. There is quite a resentment of Bayliners
here. Glad I don't own one. Reminds me of the audiophile areas I
frequent. Ever hear of Bose speakers? They are to audio what Bayliner
is
to boats. No highs- no lows-- must be Bose.



I've never understood the clamor for Bose speakers. To me, they sound
like...small speakers. When it comes to reproducing sound accurately, I
don't believe you can fool the laws of physics.

There are some very small speakers coming of age with awesome sound.
Using ceramics, and rare earth magnets.


I'm sure, but I don't know enough about the physics of accoustics to
understand how a tiny speaker can move the air necessary to create the low
sounds found in the serious music I enjoy. As an example, I have an old
Hammond B3, with a Leslie speaker. It's a fine electronic organ, though
certainly not state of the art. I can make it emulate a pipe organ, and it
sounds fine doing so. But it doesn't sound like anything Dirk Flentrop
built.

While not a physics expert, I agree with the moving air statement.
That being said, I don't know how they do it, but they do. Some high
end small speakers surprise you with there sound. Does your B3 have
the turntable speaker? LOVE those!

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:58:24 +0000, Scott McFadden wrote:

(Bob D.) wrote in message ...

A. Qualify your remarks as your opinion
B. If stating it as a fact, back up what you say with some shred of evidence

Find me one offshore, six pack, diving or fishing charter from Key
West to Fernandina Beach, FL that uses a Bayliner.


Yeah, Florida is "the world". Reminds me of the headlines in Britain when
intense fog shut down all traffic in the English Channel: "Europe Cut
Off!"

Here on the West Coast of Canada, the vast majority of fishing charters
use Bayliner Trophies (or Hourstons or Double-Eagles, but "the world" doesn't know
about them...). Brett on the Charlottes just traded his Hourston in for a
Trophy, and yesterday there was Hurricane-force winds (60knots) and
10-meter seas there (not saying he went OUT in those conditions, but
pointing out that they DO get "weather" there)

Lloyd