"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching. But
they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable, means they
need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:48:45 -0700, "Canuck57"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching. But
they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable, means they
need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

I just looked again - all three are worth less than 6 billion total in
equity.

GM is asking for $25 billion?

Uh huh. Amazing ain't it?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.

Let 'em die - that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
--

Happy Holidays and Merry Whatever It Is
That ****es Liberals Off.

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He said
that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ... *plus*
an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in the future,
GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back and
completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for sure.
Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will close. But
reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the better chance it
has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Eisboch

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 00:08:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He said
that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ... *plus*
an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in the future,
GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back and
completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for sure.
Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will close. But
reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the better chance it
has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Rick Wagoner is so out of touch with reality, it's scary that a guy
like him could actually be running a major manufacturing firm.

GM is a UAW benefits company who just happens to make cars as a side
line. Until they get rid of the UAW contracts plus the umpteen
zillion dealerships they aren't going to survive and no amount of
taxpayer money is going to save them. It's money down the UAW rat
hole.

TANSTAAFL and GM/UAW leadership is trying to hang on to the free lunch
as long as possible.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.


Which is why the debate about whether or not to allow them to fail is so
absurd. The point is that they have already failed, big time. The debate
now should be about how to deconstruct and see if some sort of Phoenix can
rise from the ashes. Under the right circumstances, I believe such a
re-birth is possible and would have a reasonable chance of success.

RG

"RG" wrote in message ...

One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.


Which is why the debate about whether or not to allow them to fail is so
absurd. The point is that they have already failed, big time. The debate
now should be about how to deconstruct and see if some sort of Phoenix can
rise from the ashes. Under the right circumstances, I believe such a
re-birth is possible and would have a reasonable chance of success.

RG


I agree 100%. At first blush many people think of "saving jobs" which is
nice, but not reality. Those jobs have already been doomed, bailout or no
bailout, economic meltdown or no economic meltdown.

Eisboch

I agree 100%. At first blush many people think of "saving jobs" which is
nice, but not reality. Those jobs have already been doomed, bailout or
no bailout, economic meltdown or no economic meltdown.


Right. It's not about saving jobs in the short run, it's about saving the
domestic auto industry in the long run. Trying to save jobs without
radically dealing with the employer's viability as a global competitor is a
fool's errand. That only results in the scenario of "The surgery was a huge
success. Unfortunately, the patient died". For the first time in history,
there is an opportunity for GM to definitively address the baggage that they
have refused to deal with for so many years. Unfortunately, senior
management appears even still to be reluctant to do so. Enter the bk judge,
stage right.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"RG" wrote in message
...

One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.


Which is why the debate about whether or not to allow them to fail is so
absurd. The point is that they have already failed, big time. The
debate now should be about how to deconstruct and see if some sort of
Phoenix can rise from the ashes. Under the right circumstances, I
believe such a re-birth is possible and would have a reasonable chance of
success.

RG


I agree 100%. At first blush many people think of "saving jobs" which is
nice, but not reality. Those jobs have already been doomed, bailout or
no bailout, economic meltdown or no economic meltdown.

Eisboch


Where were the bailouts when thousands lost their jobs when World Com and
Enron folded. Probably as many jobs lost as GM would suffer. We survived.
Maybe they will bailout enron and Worldcom retroactively.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"RG" wrote in message
...

One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.


Which is why the debate about whether or not to allow them to fail is so
absurd. The point is that they have already failed, big time. The
debate now should be about how to deconstruct and see if some sort of
Phoenix can rise from the ashes. Under the right circumstances, I
believe such a re-birth is possible and would have a reasonable chance
of success.

RG


I agree 100%. At first blush many people think of "saving jobs" which
is nice, but not reality. Those jobs have already been doomed, bailout
or no bailout, economic meltdown or no economic meltdown.

Eisboch


Where were the bailouts when thousands lost their jobs when World Com and
Enron folded. Probably as many jobs lost as GM would suffer. We
survived. Maybe they will bailout enron and Worldcom retroactively.

And no one is bailing out main street's 401k.

Makes me wonder who is really calling the shots at the top. This is going
down like a trial where the verdict is known before it starts. The trial is
nothing more than a rouse, a pony show. Face saver for the government to
appear to be in the interests of the people. When in fact this has nothing
to do with it.

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:51:23 -0700, "RG" wrote:


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.


Which is why the debate about whether or not to allow them to fail is so
absurd. The point is that they have already failed, big time. The debate
now should be about how to deconstruct and see if some sort of Phoenix can
rise from the ashes. Under the right circumstances, I believe such a
re-birth is possible and would have a reasonable chance of success.

Perfect.

Well said.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken