RG wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
RG wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 12:46:42 -0700, "RG" wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:20:58 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 12:21:14 -0500, Boater
wrote:

We've handed out close to a trillion dollars to the Wall Street and
banking industries, and for what? We'll get nothing out of that.
Not
even a lousy car.
Tell me just out of curiosity - what model car do you drive? How
about your wife?
Why do you ask? I don't fault the UAW or organized workers for the
crappiness of some of the cars US producers turn out.
Just curious.
It's a Toyota. Really.

~Snerk~
That's what I thought.

Made down South with non-Union labor.

Do as I say - not as I do.

Typical. He wants to save a company from which he won't buy a car
because of quality issues which is built by the very same Union
members he says are so important to the US. Instead he buys a car
from a foreign company built in the US by non-Union labor.

Now is that tortured thinking or what?
--

Twisted. So much so that he couldn't even bring himself to directly an
honestly answer your simple question. Please pay no attention to the man
behind the curtain.



You haven't been selling AIG-branded insurance, have you?

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, dip****.

"I refuse to buy products made in China"
Guess where your MacBook came from, numbnutz.

"I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart"
Unless they've got a deal on an HP printer.

"I support the UAW"
Except when it comes to what I park in my driveway.

It never ends with you.

I can't even imagine how much it must suck to be you. And you're right. We
don't know what Karen drives. All we know is that it apparently isn't fast
enough to get the **** away from you. At what point in your life did you
come to the conclusion that truth and integrity have no value whatsoever?




Sorry, numnuts, but I haven't shopped at a Wal-Mart in decades, either
in a store or via the internet.

As for my laptop, the box it came in said "Made in Singapore." I don't
think that referred to the box. I doubt many laptops are made in the USA
these days. Can you verify a line of laptops with say 80% of more of
U.S. made content?

And you don't know what is in my driveway.

So, how did AIG work for you? Still getting residuals on the overpriced
crap you sold to unsuspecting purchasers of "insurance"?

D.Duck wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
"BAR" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Obama's already talking about major infrastructure spending with the
intent of creating jobs. It seems to me, saving GM's jobs, might in the
long run, be cheaper.
Where is the money coming from to pay for those infrastructure projects?
In this recession the government doesn't have the revenue to pay for
these extra projects. With the cost of oil dropping like a rock The Obama
cannot raid the oil companies for "wind-fall-profits" and the worst thing
The Obama can do is raise taxes on anyone.

Nope, and this has been something I've learned as I watch and listen to
and about this mess.

The government can write checks forever. They print the money.
Eventually, hyper-inflation will come along and bite us in the ass, but
right now
most of the left leaning economic experts are saying, "We'll deal with
that when the time comes".

Eisboch


I have some German pre-war 500,000DM paper. Want to buy some, cheap? 80




I have about a million pesos somewhere. Big chunky coins. Not the ones
that gained in value. I do have some coins with value, though. I visit
them once a year at the bank vault, say hello, and tuck them in for
another year of sleep.

Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message
t...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, Eisboch wrote:



A Chapter 11 filing does not, in itself, reorganize a company and
certainly is *not* a means for "getting people to do the same things,
only cheaper". All it does is protects the company from involuntary
bankrupcy by putting the vendor bill collectors, banks and lawsuits at
bay while an effort is made to reorganize and satisfy current finanical
obligations via negotiation. While protected in Chapter 11 a plan is
developed to reorganize, refinance, and re-negotiate existing (and in
GM's case - obsolete) contracts. Overseen by a bankruptcy court, the
plan, agreed to by all concerned parties is generated and when
implimentated, the company emerges from Chapter 11. If a plan
cannot be
produced that is approved by all concerned parties, the company usually
goes belly up in Chapter 7.
Sure, but the end result is "getting people to do the same thing, only
cheaper". Let me ask you something, does the bankruptcy court take
into
consideration America's interests? Under normal circumstances, I would
readily agree GM should go Chapter 11, but these are not normal
circumstances. We are in recession, and it's looking like it could be a
severe one. Personally, I don't think we can afford to let GM go into
bankruptcy at this time.

Barney Frank's bill limits the ability to truly reorganize the auto
companies. It's simply throwing money into the same sink hole.
Six-eight months from now they'll be back, needing more survival money.

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business
need
a complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in
today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a
government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process,
makes sense to me.
You know, we have already spent $350 billion to bail out the *******s
that caused this mess. We've let them keep their millions in bonuses,
but we're quibbling about spending 1/10 of that to save an industry that
provides 1-3 million jobs. I don't get it. And, I would point out, it
was the incompetence of Wall Street that brought Detroit's troubles into
crisis.

Obama's already talking about major infrastructure spending with the
intent of creating jobs. It seems to me, saving GM's jobs, might in the
long run, be cheaper.


I would respectfully suggest that your last sentence underscores where
I think you (and others) are wrong.
Saving GM's jobs doesn't fix GM's problems. GM does not, and has not
for a long time, (predating the current
economic meltdown), sold enough vehicles to be profitable and justify
their current bloated structure. GM's crisis was coming anyway. The
meltdown accelerated it and presented an opportunity to pick up some
TARP money.

It's time to face the music and do what is necessary to save *any*
jobs at GM and related industry businesses.
That cannot be done internally through GM management and the UAW.
There's too much history and tradition of the "good old days".
It will take a Chapter 11 filing (with preconditions and government
support) to fix it.

Eisboch




You know, by generally accepted accounting standards, the federal
government is broke, bankrupt, even, though it does have the ability to
borrow and print money.

I say if the auto industry is allowed to back out of paying agreed upon
and contracted pension and health benefits to retirees, then the federal
government should do the same with its civilian and military retirees.

If that were proposed, my suspicion is that those who depend upon
federal civilian and military pensions and benefits would object mightily.

The point is, the retirees planned around the contracted benefits and
depend upon them. Problem is, in the private sector, corporate thieves
were allowed to pile up unfunded liabilities in order to help cook their
books.

We've handed out close to a trillion dollars to the Wall Street and
banking industries, and for what? We'll get nothing out of that. Not
even a lousy car.
Bail out GM and chances are you will get a lousy car. Oh wait. You don't
buy american cars, do you?

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote:

Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let
them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail
is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we
have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the
spending we've been doing in Iraq for years.

I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious.

However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to
remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived,
our father's got new jobs and life went on.

Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's
not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I
do, believe me I honestly do.

But you know what - they expected the good times to keep on rolling
and their bosses expected the good times to keep on rolling and guess
what - the good times ain't rolling anymore.

Pain is a great motivator. I've been there - not a dime to my name,
fresh out of rehab, no home, no job, but I swore that would never
happen again. I worked my ass off, obtained more education, Mrs. Wave
worked an after school job for a few years - we scrimped, saved,
invested and only bought one thing on credit - the property we now
own. And that was paid off in ten years.

We owe nothing, are comfortable and it's all because we took nothing
for granted and planned for the future - good times and bad. We took
responsibility for our own future.

And that's what's missing here - we're asking the average taxpayer to
keep GM's and the UAW's future sound while their own is on shaky
ground.

That's not fair.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:06:36 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
The quality issues have nothing to do with the workers who build the car,
and everything to do with corporate management.

That's right. I forgot. The union workers are paid to stay home while Rick
Wagoner personally bolts the cars together.

Unless things have changed drastically since I last visited an
autoplant, virtually every decision on who does what with what and for
how long is determined by management. Design is determined by
management. Tools are decided by management. Training is decided by
management. Materials are decided by management. Assembly line speed is
decided by management.

Then what does the Union do?

And by the way, you never answered my question. Why did you buy a
foreign car built by non-Union labor in the US?

Smacks of hyprocrisy don't you think?

--

"Every normal man must be tempted at times
to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
and begin to slit throats."

H. L. Mencken

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote:

Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let
them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail
is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we
have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the
spending we've been doing in Iraq for years.

I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious.

However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to
remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived,
our father's got new jobs and life went on.


Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am
sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:06:36 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
The quality issues have nothing to do with the workers who build the car,
and everything to do with corporate management.
That's right. I forgot. The union workers are paid to stay home while Rick
Wagoner personally bolts the cars together.
Unless things have changed drastically since I last visited an
autoplant, virtually every decision on who does what with what and for
how long is determined by management. Design is determined by
management. Tools are decided by management. Training is decided by
management. Materials are decided by management. Assembly line speed is
decided by management.

Then what does the Union do?

And by the way, you never answered my question. Why did you buy a
foreign car built by non-Union labor in the US?

Smacks of hyprocrisy don't you think?

--


Traditionally, manufacturing unions negotiate to improve the wages,
hours, working conditions and benefits of their members. In progressive
countries abroad and at some plants here, they do more.

The construction unions are significantly different in scope, as are the
professional unions, such as teachers' unions.

My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by non-union
workers in the USA.

Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the
corresponding Ford and GM vehicles were too large.

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:38:05 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote:

Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let
them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail
is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we
have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the
spending we've been doing in Iraq for years.

I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious.

However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to
remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived,
our father's got new jobs and life went on.


Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am
sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce.

Probably are - at Toyota so they can build cars for guys like you who
say one thing and do another.

You now, being a big time Union backer and flack..er..writer/editor,
I'm surprized that you haven't have your tires slashed and your
windows broken when you visit all these auto plants and Union job
sites you keep talking about.

Don't your fellow Unionists support the UAW? Or do they all drive
Toyotas?

--

"Every normal man must be tempted at times
to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
and begin to slit throats."

H. L. Mencken

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:28:01 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:



Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's
not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I do,
believe me I honestly do.

Hell, I know that, and didn't mean to insinuate anything else. We're
just looking at this differently. Right now, I believe the economic
situation it too perilous to allow GM to fail. It is difficult to defend
GM. They have had plenty of warning to make the difficult decisions, and
they didn't. As I have said, under normal circumstances, I'd let the
market deal with them.

From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are
going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with
very few open markets.






But you know what - they expected the good times to keep on rolling and
their bosses expected the good times to keep on rolling and guess what -
the good times ain't rolling anymore.

Pain is a great motivator. I've been there - not a dime to my name,
fresh out of rehab, no home, no job, but I swore that would never happen
again. I worked my ass off, obtained more education, Mrs. Wave worked
an after school job for a few years - we scrimped, saved, invested and
only bought one thing on credit - the property we now own. And that was
paid off in ten years.

We owe nothing, are comfortable and it's all because we took nothing for
granted and planned for the future - good times and bad. We took
responsibility for our own future.

And that's what's missing here - we're asking the average taxpayer to
keep GM's and the UAW's future sound while their own is on shaky ground.

That's not fair.

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:38:05 -0500, Boater
wrote:

Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:51:16 -0600, wrote:

Frankly, I don't give a damn about GM. During normal times, I'd say let
them go under, but in these times, I think the risk of letting them fail
is too big. The bridge *loan* they are talking about is 1/10 what we
have already spent on Wall Street, and only a couple of months of the
spending we've been doing in Iraq for years.
I understand and I don't think it's funny at all - it is very serious.

However, I've been through this - I'm, and you, are old enough to
remember '56 which was as bad if not worse than now. We all survived,
our father's got new jobs and life went on.

Too bad we've lost more than a million jobs in the last year. But I am
sure there are jobs aplenty for everyone, including the aging GM workforce.

Probably are - at Toyota so they can build cars for guys like you who
say one thing and do another.

You now, being a big time Union backer and flack..er..writer/editor,
I'm surprized that you haven't have your tires slashed and your
windows broken when you visit all these auto plants and Union job
sites you keep talking about.

Don't your fellow Unionists support the UAW? Or do they all drive
Toyotas?


I only drive a Toyota down at the boat ramp.