"Tim" wrote in message
...
On Dec 6, 7:17 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews:s3ukj4dksrfj18mrb6l047d3a90lniqpk0@4ax .com...



On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 07:25:24 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews:b2rkj4hrnvj4m6p6prft2vp4s3bv7jvpms@4 ax.com...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...?mod=rss_opini...

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.

Ford doesn't want them. They are trying to downsize themselves. They've
sold their stakes in Saab, Jaguar, most of Mazda and are thinking of
dumping
Volvo.

That's probably true, but Chrysler does have a few products lines that
would merge very nicely with the overall Ford product line - I'm
thinking Jeep in particular if there was only one. And their design
team could do a lot for upgrading Ford's design group which has been
stuck in neutral for a long time. When was the last time they
upgraded the Crown Vic for example - that design has been around since
1999/2000 I think.

The Crown Vic is no longer available to the public. (as of 2008) Ford
still
makes them for fleet sales only ... police and taxie cabs. The Mercury
version is still available to the public, but not for long.

Ford will end up with about three global car platforms and trucks.

Eisboch

All this started when they quit the Taurus.

Actually, the Taurus is back. I believe it's a replacement for the Ford
"Five Hundred" which never caught on. The new Taurus is based largely on a
colaborative effort by Ford and Volvo and incorporates many Volvo designs.

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...


The Crown Vic is no longer available to the public. (as of 2008) Ford
still makes them for fleet sales only ... police and taxie cabs. The
Mercury version is still available to the public, but not for long.

Ford will end up with about three global car platforms and trucks.

Eisboch

Oh my...my brother-in-law has been talking about getting a Crown Vic for
years....he is winding down his contruction company and wants a big car to
tool around in.

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:03:11 -0400, "Don White"
wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
m...


The Crown Vic is no longer available to the public. (as of 2008) Ford
still makes them for fleet sales only ... police and taxie cabs. The
Mercury version is still available to the public, but not for long.

Ford will end up with about three global car platforms and trucks.

Eisboch

Oh my...my brother-in-law has been talking about getting a Crown Vic for
years....he is winding down his contruction company and wants a big car to
tool around in.


One of my golfing buddies was a Cadillac guy (retired Navy...). About five
years ago, Cadillac wouldn't give him the deal he wanted, so he sold his
and bought a Lincoln Town Car. He loves it. He's now looking to see if he
can get a good deal on a new one.
--
John H.

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 08:17:18 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 07:25:24 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...s_opinion_main

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.

Ford doesn't want them. They are trying to downsize themselves. They've
sold their stakes in Saab, Jaguar, most of Mazda and are thinking of
dumping
Volvo.

That's probably true, but Chrysler does have a few products lines that
would merge very nicely with the overall Ford product line - I'm
thinking Jeep in particular if there was only one. And their design
team could do a lot for upgrading Ford's design group which has been
stuck in neutral for a long time. When was the last time they
upgraded the Crown Vic for example - that design has been around since
1999/2000 I think.

The Crown Vic is no longer available to the public. (as of 2008) Ford still
makes them for fleet sales only ... police and taxie cabs. The Mercury
version is still available to the public, but not for long.

Grand Marquis - Crown Vic with a snobby attitude.

I had forgotten about that actually - they did cease production on
them. I think the Taurus/Sable too if I'm not mistaken.

Ford will end up with about three global car platforms and trucks.

Probably, but I still think that some of the Chrysler platforms would
make for a great addition to Ford and help rebrand Ford as a more
modern, up-to-date manufacturer.

--

"Do what you can, with what you
have, where you are."

Theodore Roosevelt.

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching. But
they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable, means they
need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 18:48:45 -0700, "Canuck57"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching. But
they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable, means they
need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

I just looked again - all three are worth less than 6 billion total in
equity.

GM is asking for $25 billion?

Uh huh. Amazing ain't it?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.

Let 'em die - that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
--

Happy Holidays and Merry Whatever It Is
That ****es Liberals Off.

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He said
that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ... *plus*
an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in the future,
GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back and
completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for sure.
Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will close. But
reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the better chance it
has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Eisboch

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 00:08:56 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He said
that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ... *plus*
an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in the future,
GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back and
completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for sure.
Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will close. But
reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the better chance it
has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Rick Wagoner is so out of touch with reality, it's scary that a guy
like him could actually be running a major manufacturing firm.

GM is a UAW benefits company who just happens to make cars as a side
line. Until they get rid of the UAW contracts plus the umpteen
zillion dealerships they aren't going to survive and no amount of
taxpayer money is going to save them. It's money down the UAW rat
hole.

TANSTAAFL and GM/UAW leadership is trying to hang on to the free lunch
as long as possible.

--

"An idealist is one who, on noticing that
a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes
that it will also make better soup."

H.L. Mencken

One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.


Which is why the debate about whether or not to allow them to fail is so
absurd. The point is that they have already failed, big time. The debate
now should be about how to deconstruct and see if some sort of Phoenix can
rise from the ashes. Under the right circumstances, I believe such a
re-birth is possible and would have a reasonable chance of success.

RG

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back
and completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for
sure. Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will
close. But reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the
better chance it has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Eisboch

Please, I beg. Write your senator and congressman to tell them to force GM
chapter 11 ASAP. They are screwing with Canadian politics in a bad way.
Fortunately the junta failed, but they plan on trying again.