On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote:

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:28:01 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:



Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's
not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I do,
believe me I honestly do.

Hell, I know that, and didn't mean to insinuate anything else. We're
just looking at this differently. Right now, I believe the economic
situation it too perilous to allow GM to fail. It is difficult to defend
GM. They have had plenty of warning to make the difficult decisions, and
they didn't. As I have said, under normal circumstances, I'd let the
market deal with them.

Well, I'm glad it's not my decision. It's easy for me to say what to
do as I don't have any skin in the game. :)

From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are
going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with
very few open markets.

Every boom cycle has a bust cycle. We're in a bust cycle.

And, to tell the truth, there is still a lot right with the economy.
It is the economic engine of the world and it will survive. There is
a safety net this time and there are concerned people who will work it
all out eventually.

It's just a matter of time.

On Dec 7, 8:08*pm, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:28:01 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:

Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's
not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I do,
believe me I honestly do.

Hell, I know that, and didn't mean to insinuate anything else. *We're
just looking at this differently. *Right now, I believe the economic
situation it too perilous to allow GM to fail. *It is difficult to defend
GM. *They have had plenty of warning to make the difficult decisions, and
they didn't. *As I have said, under normal circumstances, I'd let the
market deal with them. *

Well, I'm glad it's not my decision. *It's easy for me to say what to
do as I don't have any skin in the game. *:)

From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are
going to fail anyway. *There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with
very few open markets.

Every boom cycle has a bust cycle. *We're in a bust cycle.

And, to tell the truth, there is still a lot right with the economy.
It is the economic engine of the world and it will survive. *There is
a safety net this time and there are concerned people who will work it
all out eventually.

It's just a matter of time.

Quesiton of curiosity.

are the big 3 beggers tanking in the US? or does this include their
entire overseas operations as well.

Reason I'm bringing this up is because Delphi chaptered a couple years
ago here stateside, while in the mean time they were building a
massivly huge mfg. facility in New Deli India.


hmmmm.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

Barney Frank's bill limits the ability to truly reorganize the auto
companies. It's simply throwing money into the same sink hole. Six-eight
months from now they'll be back, needing more survival money.

Lets hope a dumb assed bill like this dies on the floor.

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in
today's global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a
government bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process,
makes sense to me.

Eisboch

That is as far as I would go. Maybe management is worried that once the
government sees the books the SEC will roll in?

To me, chapter 11 seems the valid route. So what if it lands in chapter 7
at a later time. GM isn't exactly that critical in the big picture. In
fact, say GM does die outright. The Detroit buyers will shift their
purchases to Ford and Chrysler keeping more of their people working. So
what if GM makes more cars, what are they going to do? Store them on the
Whitehouse lawn? They are not selling!

Maybe seantors own too much JCI, GM or Cerberus? Best explanation I have.

Over 1,000,000 people lost their jobs in the last few months, very few were
actually auto workers. What makes these ******s so special and the rest can
go to hell? Who is bailing out the majority?

------
New USSR - United States Socialist Republic - Loans on the government for
free and the land of Government Motors.

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:59:58 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:

The auto industry's contracts and historical ways of doing business need a
complete overhauling in order to be a viable, competitive entity in
today's
global markets. Chapter 11 reorganization, prepackaged with a government
bridge loan to keep the beast breathing during the process, makes sense to
me.

While I understand the idea, I don't want money going to GM. Ford
doesn't want the money, just a backup which is one hell of a lot less
expensive.

Let GM sink. If they can't get through Chapter 11, tough. Let them
go Chapter 7 and disappear.

Ford, Toyota, Honda and others will take up the slack.

Survival of the fittest.

Agreed. To give you an idea how nasty the GM-UAW-CAW thing is follow this.

Canada is having a crisis right now with interferance of its democracy. GM
has asked Canada for $6.8 billion. The economic impact to Canada would be
equivelent of about $70 billion US to the US taxpayer.

It is believed GM-CAW calls up a socialist party and askes to get this money
at any cost ASAP. The NDP makes a bribe to a separatist party known as the
Bloc for their unmitigated support to over throw the current government.
They agree.

They then approach a minority opposition party called the Liberals that has
a leader even Liberals don't like. He is in heat to become the Prime
Minister of Canada with a junta coalition. Fortunately our PM and Govenor
General narrowly avoid this coup d'etat. But they are about to try again
after replacing the Liberal leader as 68% of the Canadians oppose the junta.
That kind of majority hasn't been seen in over 100 years!

There are many that would not accept a GM product for free, unless it was to
burn it. Separation polls indicate if this hhappens, 64% of Albertans favor
leaving confederation, which will inevitablly result in Canada as you know
it breaking up.

GM is screwing with your neighboors democracy, along the worlds most longest
unprotected border to the north of you. I know the US is in crisis, but you
don't want a natural resource source like Canada doing some leftist
socialist Venzuela type nationalisation, you might want to consider the
impact of this and slap GM hard into unitigated chapter 11 before they do
more damage than you know.

Fire the board and management while you are at it. There is no otehrs more
deserving of being fired with cause than that lot.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...

I still say that this is a great opportunity for some capital
investment firm to step in and build a new car company from scratch
designed to compete with Honda/Toyota, etc.

I'd be willing to bet that it could be done, start to manufacturing
and distribution, in less than five years.

Chapter 11 would allow that to proceed. I wouldn't even doubt some
billionaires' private equity cash is sitting and waiting and watching.
But they know, to get the meaningful change needed to make GM viable,
means they need chapter 11.

There is also a mater of equity here. GM's market cap is what, $2.5
billion?

GM is asking for $25 billion?

WTF. In my books that makes their debt to equity obscenly stupid. No
wonder that can't borrow a dime.


One of the financial experts interviewed on CNN commented on this. He
said that even if GM received the full requested government bailout ...
*plus* an additional 50-75 billion that he figured will be necessary in
the future, GM will still be an insolvent, bankrupt company.

It makes absolutely no sense to pour money into it without stepping back
and completely reorganizing it's business base. It will be painful for
sure. Jobs will be lost. Benefits will be cut back. Dealerships will
close. But reality *has* to be faced and the sooner it is done, the
better chance it has of surviving.
IMO, anyone who thinks that simply dumping billions of dollars into a
company like GM is going to benefit anyone in the long run has lost touch
with reality.

Eisboch

Please, I beg. Write your senator and congressman to tell them to force GM
chapter 11 ASAP. They are screwing with Canadian politics in a bad way.
Fortunately the junta failed, but they plan on trying again.

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:02:08 -0800, Tim wrote:


are the big 3 beggers tanking in the US? or does this include their
entire overseas operations as well.

Reason I'm bringing this up is because Delphi chaptered a couple years
ago here stateside, while in the mean time they were building a
massivly huge mfg. facility in New Deli India.

GM has been pressuring their suppliers to use low cost countries such as
India.

http://www.allbusiness.com/management/3500893-1.html





hmmmm.

wrote in message
t...
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:28:01 -0500, Tom Francis - SWSports wrote:



Maybe it's because I see it as more black and white than others - it's
not that I don't have empathy and sympathy for laid off workers - I do,
believe me I honestly do.

Hell, I know that, and didn't mean to insinuate anything else. We're
just looking at this differently. Right now, I believe the economic
situation it too perilous to allow GM to fail. It is difficult to defend
GM. They have had plenty of warning to make the difficult decisions, and
they didn't. As I have said, under normal circumstances, I'd let the
market deal with them.

From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are
going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with
very few open markets.


Again, I think your last paragraph illuminates the problem and is the heart
of the dilemma in terms of what to do.
If you believe there are going to failures of some car manufacturers anyway
due to over capacity, what sense does it make to
pour money into prolonging the life of a very troubled and distressed
company if it's eventual demise is all but certain? I think that is the
situation in the case of GM and probably Chrysler as do many others.

Furthermore, oil prices will eventually go up again. That factor, plus the
focus on fuel efficient and alternative energy driven cars is going to
change America's love affair and overall use of their cars. It's happening
already. Cars will be less a part of our lives, driven fewer miles, used
primarily for basic, necessary transportation and last longer. That's going
to further diminish the market growth for "new" cars and particularly the
ones that traditionally generate the highest profits. Regardless of how a
company like GM manages to stay in business, they can't remain the goliath
of a company they have been over the past 40 years. Jobs are going to be
lost and vendor businesses are going to fail.

Unemployment is rising everywhere. It's not just the automotive industry.
Wouldn't it be better to invest billions of dollars into the creation of new
businesses or the expansion of existing, but healthy businesses to create
new jobs? Seems to me that route is better than pouring it into a bloated,
obsolete organization that is likely to go belly-up anyway.

Food for though: I am not working. I am unemployed. I am working on a
plan to do something that will employ me and maybe 10 or 12 others in the
course of the next 12-14 months if I am successful. There's about 11-13 new
jobs. Multiply me by a 100,000 which is a tenth of the number laid off in
the past two or three months. That's a lot of new jobs.

No, it's *not* a plasma energy generator. :-)

Eisboch

"Boater" wrote in message
...

My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by non-union
workers in the USA.

Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the corresponding
Ford and GM vehicles were too large.


I assume you bought a used Tundra.

Eisboch

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:29:22 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Unemployment is rising everywhere. It's not just the automotive industry.
Wouldn't it be better to invest billions of dollars into the creation of new
businesses or the expansion of existing, but healthy businesses to create
new jobs? Seems to me that route is better than pouring it into a bloated,
obsolete organization that is likely to go belly-up anyway.

All good points and something to consider - but they won't.

Food for though: I am not working. I am unemployed. I am working on a
plan to do something that will employ me and maybe 10 or 12 others in the
course of the next 12-14 months if I am successful. There's about 11-13 new
jobs. Multiply me by a 100,000 which is a tenth of the number laid off in
the past two or three months. That's a lot of new jobs.

Good luck.

No, it's *not* a plasma energy generator. :-)

Damn.

Let me see - 10/12 - music interest - lots of musical goodies, Hammond
B3....

I'VE GOT IT!!!

Your going to form the new Blood, Sweat and Tears!!!

On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:30:09 -0600, wrote:

From my perspective, eventually, several major car manufacturers are
going to fail anyway. There seems to be a glut of manufacturers with
very few open markets.

You know - you have good points, I think I have good points, Dick has
good points - we've all got some really good points.

And then there's bull**** like this.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...0_favor07.html

I mean seriously - the taxpayer gets f'd over everyday with crap like
this -what's 34 billion to keep Union workers from not working at 95%
of their base pay.

Nothing.

I've changed my mind - bail everybody out. I'm going to do something
like Eisboch - start a new business and apply for a bail out six
months down the road.

What the heck - might as well get in on the deal.