On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:59:56 -0500, Jim wrote:

Boater wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
I do think Ford and GM would be better off, as would their workers,
if good foreign management took over there, management from Japan
or Korea. with buyouts for the current organized employees, and a
new unionized deal for new hires, with a quality "national" health
care plan so the employers aren't burdened with that.

I have no faith in U.S. corporate management and its B-school
mentality.


Overall, I agree. I am not sure that fresh, innovative management
cannot be found here in the US, but I won't argue the need to get
away from traditional business and MBA concepts.

I also believe in and respect the concept of a contract. The
current organized employees need to be considered and fairly
treated. However, contracts, by design, can be renegotiated,
particularly in troubled times when absolute adherence to them puts
the whole operation at risk.

I couldn't agree more that businesses should not be the
administrators of health plans.

Eisboch

I haven't seen the numbers, but I wonder what American corporations
would have to do if they were required to fund their pension
liabilities.


I don't know because I am not very familiar with corporations with
pension plans.
Most small businesses (that employs the most people) typically don't
have pension plans.
They may have 401k's and/or similar and may make some form of matching
contributions, along with matching contributions to SS benefits.
That's about it, and that's how the majority of people plan for
retirement.

Eisboch



Ahhh 401k's.... Too bad about those.

And that's about how we feel about bailing out union pensions. Too bad.
So sad.

The irony escapes him.
--
John H.

JohnH wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 07:49:54 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 04:32:22 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

"Boater" wrote in message
...
My understanding is that the Toyota we have was not built by non-union
workers in the USA.

Why did I choose it? Because at the time I purchased it, the
corresponding
Ford and GM vehicles were too large.

I assume you bought a used Tundra.

Eisboch

I believe he said he had a 4Runner.
--
John H.

Oh. I was wrong. I thought he mentioned a Tundra.
I assume it is an older, used model.

Eisboch


Well, he's had it about six years, and it is used only to tow boats at
Breezy Point.

Horse****.


You're really in it way over your head, Herring.

The 4Runner is in semi-retirement. It's been replaced as my daily
driver. And it's a 2004 model. Let's see...bought it in 2004, had it for
siz years, according to you...that means it is 2010.

Did that bimbo from Alaska, Palin, lose the 2010 Senate race?

I'm sure your abilities as an Army officer contributed to our loss to
the North Vietnamese.

On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:44:34 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

That wouldn't bother me
at all. But, as I now understand it, it's the company that pays, based on
a contract agreement made back in the '80s.

Yes. Why they would ever make an agreement like that is beyond me
but I'm sure the profits were rolling in at the time and no one wanted
to risk putting a damper on that with a strike. The short sighted
view of the auto companies is why they are in trouble now.

"Boater" wrote in message
...

JohnH wrote:


Well, he's had it about six years, and it is used only to tow boats at
Breezy Point. Horse****.




You're really in it way over your head, Herring.

The 4Runner is in semi-retirement. It's been replaced as my daily driver.
And it's a 2004 model. Let's see...bought it in 2004, had it for siz
years, according to you...that means it is 2010.



Well, wait a minute. Not to be a nit, but:

You say it's a 2004 model.
You say you bought it in 2004.
That means it was new, or nearly new.
You say it's used to tow your boat.
It's now 2008.
You say it has 100,000 miles on it.
That's roughly 25,000 miles a year.

That's a hell of a lot of boat towing.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

JohnH wrote:
Well, he's had it about six years, and it is used only to tow boats at
Breezy Point. Horse****.


You're really in it way over your head, Herring.

The 4Runner is in semi-retirement. It's been replaced as my daily driver.
And it's a 2004 model. Let's see...bought it in 2004, had it for siz
years, according to you...that means it is 2010.



Well, wait a minute. Not to be a nit, but:

You say it's a 2004 model.
You say you bought it in 2004.
That means it was new, or nearly new.
You say it's used to tow your boat.
It's now 2008.
You say it has 100,000 miles on it.
That's roughly 25,000 miles a year.

That's a hell of a lot of boat towing.

Eisboch



Prior to its retirement as a daily driver in mid-year, it was driven a
lot. We live in the boonies. It's about 35 miles from here to the
nearest decent shopping center. It's 50 miles to downtown DC, not that I
drive in that much. Miles add up.

Now, I just use it to tow the boat to and from the marina and to a
couple of close-by ramps, or to the dealership for maintenance.

You did see the part about "semi-retirement" and "replaced as my daily
driver," right?

Or are you depending upon Herring for reporting "reality?"

We have three four-wheeled vehicles here, and one in Florida.

"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

JohnH wrote:
Well, he's had it about six years, and it is used only to tow boats at
Breezy Point. Horse****.


You're really in it way over your head, Herring.

The 4Runner is in semi-retirement. It's been replaced as my daily
driver. And it's a 2004 model. Let's see...bought it in 2004, had it for
siz years, according to you...that means it is 2010.



Well, wait a minute. Not to be a nit, but:

You say it's a 2004 model.
You say you bought it in 2004.
That means it was new, or nearly new.
You say it's used to tow your boat.
It's now 2008.
You say it has 100,000 miles on it.
That's roughly 25,000 miles a year.

That's a hell of a lot of boat towing.

Eisboch



Prior to its retirement as a daily driver in mid-year, it was driven a
lot. We live in the boonies. It's about 35 miles from here to the nearest
decent shopping center. It's 50 miles to downtown DC, not that I drive in
that much. Miles add up.

Now, I just use it to tow the boat to and from the marina and to a couple
of close-by ramps, or to the dealership for maintenance.

You did see the part about "semi-retirement" and "replaced as my daily
driver," right?

Or are you depending upon Herring for reporting "reality?"



No, I just happened to remember when you first said you bought it. I
couldn't remember if it was a Tundra or not, but I know it replaced a Ford
P/U that you sometimes referred to. When someone here challenged your
choice of manufacturer (union vs non-union) and you responded with a
statement indicating that you only used it for towing your boat, yet it had
100,000 miles on it, it didn't quite make sense.

But, now I understand. Your daily driver for most of the last four years
was indeed, a non-union built, foreign made vehicle. I got it.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

JohnH wrote:
Well, he's had it about six years, and it is used only to tow boats at
Breezy Point. Horse****.

You're really in it way over your head, Herring.

The 4Runner is in semi-retirement. It's been replaced as my daily
driver. And it's a 2004 model. Let's see...bought it in 2004, had it for
siz years, according to you...that means it is 2010.


Well, wait a minute. Not to be a nit, but:

You say it's a 2004 model.
You say you bought it in 2004.
That means it was new, or nearly new.
You say it's used to tow your boat.
It's now 2008.
You say it has 100,000 miles on it.
That's roughly 25,000 miles a year.

That's a hell of a lot of boat towing.

Eisboch


Prior to its retirement as a daily driver in mid-year, it was driven a
lot. We live in the boonies. It's about 35 miles from here to the nearest
decent shopping center. It's 50 miles to downtown DC, not that I drive in
that much. Miles add up.

Now, I just use it to tow the boat to and from the marina and to a couple
of close-by ramps, or to the dealership for maintenance.

You did see the part about "semi-retirement" and "replaced as my daily
driver," right?

Or are you depending upon Herring for reporting "reality?"



No, I just happened to remember when you first said you bought it. I
couldn't remember if it was a Tundra or not, but I know it replaced a Ford
P/U that you sometimes referred to. When someone here challenged your
choice of manufacturer (union vs non-union) and you responded with a
statement indicating that you only used it for towing your boat, yet it had
100,000 miles on it, it didn't quite make sense.

But, now I understand. Your daily driver for most of the last four years
was indeed, a non-union built, foreign made vehicle. I got it.

Eisboch



The Japanese have different ideas about the relationship between workers
and their employers. Workers are valued. The Japanese auto workers are
unionized, but the unions are "captive," they are part of the company.
I have a buddy who is an employee of Seiko Watch in Japan. He's paid
pretty well, has a nice -small- house, a national "white card" for
health insurance for the family and a guaranteed pension when he retires.

When employees are valued, and receive proper benefits from their
employers or through the government, there is less need for trade unionism.

In this country, though, where employees are discardable property, I am
hoping for a rebirth of much tougher unionism, hopefully a return to the
good old days.





I bought a 4Runner because Ford and GM didn't offer one that met *my*
needs. I wanted a smaller SUV with a small V-8 that would have the
capacity to tow my 25' Parker. At the time, neither Ford nor GM offered
such a vehicle. They had larger, heavier, more "gas hoggy" SUVs. I had
use of one of these for a short time. I felt as if I were driving an
aircraft carrier.

"Boater" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:


No, I just happened to remember when you first said you bought it. I
couldn't remember if it was a Tundra or not, but I know it replaced a
Ford P/U that you sometimes referred to. When someone here challenged
your choice of manufacturer (union vs non-union) and you responded with a
statement indicating that you only used it for towing your boat, yet it
had 100,000 miles on it, it didn't quite make sense.

But, now I understand. Your daily driver for most of the last four years
was indeed, a non-union built, foreign made vehicle. I got it.

Eisboch



The Japanese have different ideas about the relationship between workers
and their employers. Workers are valued. The Japanese auto workers are
unionized, but the unions are "captive," they are part of the company.
I have a buddy who is an employee of Seiko Watch in Japan. He's paid
pretty well, has a nice -small- house, a national "white card" for health
insurance for the family and a guaranteed pension when he retires.

When employees are valued, and receive proper benefits from their
employers or through the government, there is less need for trade
unionism.

In this country, though, where employees are discardable property, I am
hoping for a rebirth of much tougher unionism, hopefully a return to the
good old days.

I bought a 4Runner because Ford and GM didn't offer one that met *my*
needs. I wanted a smaller SUV with a small V-8 that would have the
capacity to tow my 25' Parker. At the time, neither Ford nor GM offered
such a vehicle. They had larger, heavier, more "gas hoggy" SUVs. I had use
of one of these for a short time. I felt as if I were driving an aircraft
carrier.

I understand. You don't have to explain it to me. Explain it to your union
brothers.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"Boater" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:

No, I just happened to remember when you first said you bought it. I
couldn't remember if it was a Tundra or not, but I know it replaced a
Ford P/U that you sometimes referred to. When someone here challenged
your choice of manufacturer (union vs non-union) and you responded with a
statement indicating that you only used it for towing your boat, yet it
had 100,000 miles on it, it didn't quite make sense.

But, now I understand. Your daily driver for most of the last four years
was indeed, a non-union built, foreign made vehicle. I got it.

Eisboch


The Japanese have different ideas about the relationship between workers
and their employers. Workers are valued. The Japanese auto workers are
unionized, but the unions are "captive," they are part of the company.
I have a buddy who is an employee of Seiko Watch in Japan. He's paid
pretty well, has a nice -small- house, a national "white card" for health
insurance for the family and a guaranteed pension when he retires.

When employees are valued, and receive proper benefits from their
employers or through the government, there is less need for trade
unionism.

In this country, though, where employees are discardable property, I am
hoping for a rebirth of much tougher unionism, hopefully a return to the
good old days.

I bought a 4Runner because Ford and GM didn't offer one that met *my*
needs. I wanted a smaller SUV with a small V-8 that would have the
capacity to tow my 25' Parker. At the time, neither Ford nor GM offered
such a vehicle. They had larger, heavier, more "gas hoggy" SUVs. I had use
of one of these for a short time. I felt as if I were driving an aircraft
carrier.

I understand. You don't have to explain it to me. Explain it to your union
brothers.

Eisboch



They don't design the cars and trucks, they just build what they told to
build.

On Dec 6, 8:54*am, "Don White" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews:b2rkj4hrnvj4m6p6prft2vp4s3bv7jvpms@4ax .com...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228...?mod=rss_opini....

Bankrupt them, downsize them, get rid of the onerous contracts and
merge Chrysler with Ford.

No bail out.

On some newscast, I heard that a US Congressman or Senator made the comment
to the 'Big 3' that maybe they were making their vehicles 'too good" and
therefore repeat/replacement sales are slow.
If this is true, what a sad commentary on those in power.

You heard? From whom?