In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:22:54 -0500, lid (Jonathan Ganz)
said:

That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a
second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in.

Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.

Not really. With an outboard rudder, the boat has a bit of weather helm when
seriously heeled. Reefing the main gets it back on its feet with a fairly
balanced helm.

I've never sailed a boat this size with an outboard rudder.

Is that what's doing it (or preventing it)? I would think that most boats
when seriously heeled have weather helm.

I was out today in 20 kts with 25 gusts. My boat is fairly well balanced and
takes minimal effort. It's a masthead rig. We sailed with a small working jib
and one reef in the main. She would heel, give some slight weather helm, start
to round up, then correct and get back in the groove without helm intervention
(or at least not much.. two finger control).

On 2008-08-12 01:13:00 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

I was out today in 20 kts with 25 gusts. My boat is fairly well balanced and
takes minimal effort. It's a masthead rig. We sailed with a small working jib
and one reef in the main. She would heel, give some slight weather helm, start
to round up, then correct and get back in the groove without helm intervention
(or at least not much.. two finger control).

Sounds like you had it right.

I have to tuck in the second reef and flatten the jib hard in those
conditions, as we're a light-air boat with significant weather helm if
we heel too much.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081202523416807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 01:13:00 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

I was out today in 20 kts with 25 gusts. My boat is fairly well balanced
and
takes minimal effort. It's a masthead rig. We sailed with a small working
jib
and one reef in the main. She would heel, give some slight weather helm,
start
to round up, then correct and get back in the groove without helm
intervention
(or at least not much.. two finger control).

Sounds like you had it right.

I have to tuck in the second reef and flatten the jib hard in those
conditions, as we're a light-air boat with significant weather helm if we
heel too much.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



I feel fortunate to own her. I'd like to claim that it's all my doing, but
the Sabre is very forgiving. At one point, we had the starboard rail in the
water, which is not the way I usually sail, and there was very little
weather helm.

I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps...

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2008-08-12 13:05:50 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps...

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482

It's

not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and geometry.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 13:05:50 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

I guess it has a decent size rudder, which helps...

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....20336663462482

It's

not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim and
geometry.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge rudder
for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather helm.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2008-08-12 15:46:23 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom...

It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim
and geometry.

I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge
rudder for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather
helm.

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 15:46:23 -0400, "Capt. JG" said:

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081215230316807-jerelull@maccom...

It's not the size, but the balance -- in the rudder and the boat trim
and geometry.

I guess that's true, but size does matter. LOL My Cal 20 had a huge
rudder for its size and it tracked quite nicely with minimal weather
helm.

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Sounds like you're well heeled already! (I mean understanding what's what...
sorry, stupid pun.)


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:12:52 GMT, in message
2008081308125316807-jerelull@maccom
Jere Lull wrote:

Yes size helps, but Xan's original rudder was scimitar-shaped with slab
sides and a center of effort about 10" behind the pintles. The rudder I
built had the same wetted surface, but was SO much better, very little
"helm" until we were well heeled.

I think the 28 rudder was the same shape as the original Tanzer 26
rudder, with the same problem. Did you build yours based on the T26
changes, or just common sense? I actually liked the load on the old
T26 rudder, as the main sheet in one hand (6:1) and the tiller in the
other balanced.

Ryk