In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:51:51 -0700 (PDT), RichH said:

A headsail on a 'furler' can only be reduced by 30% SA and still
retain any good shape. Beyond 30% reduction and you wind up with a
'BAG" shape instead of a usable sail shape for any 'upwind' work.
135 X .70 = 95% So, you can reduce a 135 down to a 'working
jib' (100%) size without shape problems. A 150 can usually only be
reduced to a 105, et

That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking a
second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in.

Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.

Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.

Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is
usually in front of the mast.

In article ,
RichH wrote:
Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.

Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is
usually in front of the mast.

With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of
weather helm vs. lee helm.

On 2008-08-12 01:14:53 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

In article ,
RichH wrote:
Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.

Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is
usually in front of the mast.

With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of
weather helm vs. lee helm.

As I recall, cutter rigs place the the mast further aft.

What's determines "helm" is the balance among the CEs of the sails,
keel, and hull.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
news:2008081202564175249-jerelull@maccom...
On 2008-08-12 01:14:53 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

In article
,
RichH wrote:
Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE
forward.

Not on a cutter rig (mast at ~40-50% LOA) where the combined CE is
usually in front of the mast.

With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee
helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit
of
weather helm vs. lee helm.

As I recall, cutter rigs place the the mast further aft.

What's determines "helm" is the balance among the CEs of the sails, keel,
and hull.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/



Yes, I think I recall that also... that would account for a lot of it.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit of
weather helm vs. lee helm.

On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is
further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the
CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and
can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or
all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when
heeled etc.

"RichH" wrote in message
...
With a lot of CE forward, it seems to make sense that one would have lee
helm.
This in and of itself seems unbalanced to me. I'd much rather have a bit
of
weather helm vs. lee helm.

On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is
further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the
CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and
can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or
all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when
heeled etc.


Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I
mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?)

Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as
possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true
or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of
ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of
cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose) cutter.
Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both).

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On *most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is
further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the
CLR ..... * But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and
can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or
all vectors). * All depends on the design and how it performs when
heeled etc.

Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I
mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?)

Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as
possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true
or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of
ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of
cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose) cutter.
Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both).


Roger can elaborate but most sailboats actually are set up with some
LEE HELM vs. the static CE/CLR position .... as the curvature of the
sides of the hull and 'entry angle of the bow' (fine bow versus full/
power bow shape), etc. will additionally create the rest of the
'dynamic balance' especially when the boat is heeled and moving
forward at speed.

In any 'balance', I usually always initially shape the sails to obtain
a 'dead fish' neutral helm, then back off (on halyard/cunningham,
etc.) so that I get the absolute barest of 'weather helm'. This
allows the rudder to not drag through the water (2-3 degress of
rudder), the rudder helping to support the side loads (slip) and share
some of the work of the keel ..... and wind up with the fastest
possible speed and the highest possible 'lift to windward' out of the
keel - using the keel (NACA-010 etc.) as a lifting foil... all for
racing or efficient long distance sailing/cruising.

I'd like to hear about that. It was my (perhaps wrong) understanding that
most sailboats have slight weather helm with the sails up.

This is also odd because the technique of lying ahull, according to what you
describe about lee helm, would mean that a boat in such a position would be
stern to the weather. I don't think that's the case, but I've never lay
ahull in a storm.

"RichH" wrote in message
...

On most 'true' cutters (not double headed sloops where the mast is
further forward) the combined CE is properly located above the
CLR ..... But then again the CE is a static (necessary) concept and
can be **dynamically** changed by how one 'shapes' the sails (sum or
all vectors). All depends on the design and how it performs when
heeled etc.

Errr... shouldn't CE always be located equal to the CLR via sail trim? (I
mean unless you're doing something else intentionally?)

Even with a non-true cutter, you would want to balance CE/CLR as best as
possible. Seems like you'd have more options to do that either with a true
or non-true cutter and perhaps a ketch/yawl. I know the downsides of
ketch/yawl (extra mast weight, for example), but what are the downsides of
cutters? I know someone who is intent on getting a (true, I suppose)
cutter.
Not sure where she's going to take her (offshore vs. inshore vs. both).


Roger can elaborate but most sailboats actually are set up with some
LEE HELM vs. the static CE/CLR position .... as the curvature of the
sides of the hull and 'entry angle of the bow' (fine bow versus full/
power bow shape), etc. will additionally create the rest of the
'dynamic balance' especially when the boat is heeled and moving
forward at speed.

In any 'balance', I usually always initially shape the sails to obtain
a 'dead fish' neutral helm, then back off (on halyard/cunningham,
etc.) so that I get the absolute barest of 'weather helm'. This
allows the rudder to not drag through the water (2-3 degress of
rudder), the rudder helping to support the side loads (slip) and share
some of the work of the keel ..... and wind up with the fastest
possible speed and the highest possible 'lift to windward' out of the
keel - using the keel (NACA-010 etc.) as a lifting foil... all for
racing or efficient long distance sailing/cruising.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2008-08-11 13:22:54 -0400, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

In article ,
Dave wrote:

That's consistent with what I've experienced. I generally end up taking
a second reef in the main before rolling any of the 150 in.

Doesn't that give you a fairly unbalanced helm? That's a lot of CE forward.

Typically, it improves the boat's balance and unloads the helm somewhat.

If a particular boat picks up lee helm, the rules are different of course.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/