"Mike" wrote in :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhwR_Q

The only one telling the TRUTH....

On 2008-07-13 22:49:50 -0400, Larry said:

Herodotus wrote in
:

The last three wars of Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have shown that
superior technology doesn't necessarily mean you win.


My only problem with your post is the "you" in the above sentence.

Oh gosh Larry, this is one subject I won't debate you online, though
I'll indicate that that "you" was generic, not directed to anyone in
particular.....

NO participant or observer wins in war. All lose, one way or the other.

But sometimes the war must be fought to give the non-combatants some
measure of freedom. Some "good" wars left the populace only slightly
improved. Unluckily, some "good" wars left the populace in worse shape.
(At the time, it sounded like a good idea.)

Perhaps my problem is that I grew up in an area where the "Amish"
influence is strong. Personally, if I or mine is directly endangered, I
won't hesitate to use deadly force in defense. I admire those who can
effectively solve problems without physical conflict.

But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al Quaida
vs. most/all western countries?

Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities"
refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them so
many ways?

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 05:05:56 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:


Perhaps my problem is that I grew up in an area where the "Amish"
influence is strong. Personally, if I or mine is directly endangered, I
won't hesitate to use deadly force in defense. I admire those who can
effectively solve problems without physical conflict.

But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al Quaida
vs. most/all western countries?

Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities"
refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them so
many ways?

Jere,
This is getting a bit off topic but begs a reply.

Firstly, the establishment of Israel was promoted by the chapel
politicians of Great Britain and their equally Bible reading
politicians of the USA. The Zionists were previously offered a
homeland in Uganda and in Australia, both of which they turned down.

Secondly, nobody asked the then current inhabitants as to the
establishment of a Jewish state in their lands. I do agree that it is
only proper that the Jews needed a homeland but to claim a right to
occupy Bible lands by prior occupation (the Diaspora began with
Titus's sacking of Jerusalem in 68AD) is the same right that Mussolini
and his Italian fascists claimed the right to accupy Libya and intern
its occupants in giant concentration camps where huge numbers were
systematically starved to death to provide land for Italian peasant
settlers. The claim was that it was a Roman province 2,000 years ago.

Also, there are many millions of Jews living throughout the world who
do not believe in the principle of the modern state of Israel such as
many of the Sephardic branch of Jews.

Thirdly, I do agree with non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. My
country (New Zealand) made a quite costly stand many years ago during
the cold war by banning ships with nuclear weapons from its ports.
However, I have often wondered why it is not ok for Iran to have
nuclear weapons but it is perfectly fine for Israel, Pakistan (another
US`ally) and India to have them even though they have not signed the
various protocols of non-proliferation. Only recently it was revealed
that it was the Pakistan armed forces who shipped the necessary
nuclear weapon technology and machinery to North Korea aboard North
Korean military planes from Pakistan. This hardware and technical
knowledge originally came from the USA. This, and the fact that
neither India nor Pakistan have signed the non-proliferation concords
is why Australia refuses to sell them its uranium.

The rest of the world really doesn't mind the US stance on Iran's
nuclear weapon development, which is also the position of the EU, but
it does not fail to see the double standards. If the US does attack
Iran on some trumped up pretext as they did in Iraq, then the world's
current shortage of petroleum will compound dramatically. However, it
probably won't matter as big business will make even more money in
supplying its subsidiary, the military. Their children will not be
sent to die.

regards
Peter

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhwR_Q

The only one telling the TRUTH....

Sadly, nobody wants to hear the truth Larry..
We'd rather let CNN, FOX, MTV, CMT, our church or political party tell us
what to think and do. Saves valuable porn surfing and video gaming time.
We're in a toilet, but the surge is working and there nothing really wrong
with the economy so all is good, right?
Could someone open up my drip just a little? aaaawwww, that's it.....

If this trend continues and Democrats run the government, say goodbye to
Stinkpot Cruisers.

Hardly. Those of us that can afford it will continue to enjoy it... with a
lot more free space on the water.

Jere Lull wrote in news:2008071401055675249-
jerelull@maccom:

But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al
Quaida
vs. most/all western countries?

First, I've never met, seen or had any contact with an "Al Quaida"
person. I've seen some government-doctored videos of an Osama Bin Laden
double who didn't even look like him. I'm not sure Al Quaida even
exists, outside the various government propaganda offices that keep
hammering away using this term, over and over and over....like they do
"terrorist".

I DO know several Moslems and have for many many years. I moved to
Tehran in 1977 and lived and worked for the Iranian Air Force until 28
days before the Shahanshah left in 1979. No matter what the Zionists
controlling the US Government say, Iranian people do NOT hate Americans.
Iranian people hate the American GOVERNMENT, and with very good reason.
It threatens to kill them, just like the Israeli masters that run the
American Government. Iranians, in general, are so smart they know there
is a difference. Drop by Radio Shack and talk to Iranians, who seem to
gravitate there for a job. They are natural merchants, so be wary of
all that stuff you've bought for reasons you can't imagine...(c;

I knew rich Iranians. I knew dirt poor Iranians, Azurbajanis, Kurds. A
Kurdish man even the Iranians in my neighborhood had trouble
communicating with stayed on after our apartment building was
constructed sleeping in our common area garage. We took pity on him
sleeping on his straw mat on the concrete and made a little plywood room
for him in a corner of the garage so he could be warm with his little
kerosene stove that made the best pot of tea I ever tasted! We
communicated with him through gestures and broken Farsi. The man was
huge, a natural fork lift. I saw him carry a whole 15 cuft fridge up 8
flights of stairs and not even sweat! He kept our place clean, lawn
hand manicured, rooftop picnic area we made clean, did odd jobs for us.
He cried when he saw the room we had made for him, probably the first
home he'd ever had. We Americans were heros for the whole neighborhood
once that word got out of our good deed. NOONE dared cross our lawn or
mess with our stuff with such a huge Kurd standing guard by the door,
his favorite position except during prayer times. I never met an
Iranian who hated me in over 2 years living in a middle-class
neighborhood, off the local economy....well, except for that Iranian guy
who tried to shove his way in front of me at the Supershellan
(supermarket) when I threatened to put that shopping cart right up his
ass, to the great amusement of the very English gentleman in line behind
me in his bowler hat commenting, "Good show, old boy! Good Show!"

I'd easily move back to Iran anytime the religious nuts lose their grip
on the Iranian government and sane people from the 21st Century started
running Iran again...after all this stupid sabre rattling stopped.
Hell, I used to volunteer to fly with the Iranian Air Force....great fun
except for the 3 weeks we flew 24/7 to Tabbas after a 9.2 earthquake
killed 25,000 people in 80 seconds flat during their dinner hour. That
was awful. We flew nonstop in C-130 Hercules to feed and house the
18,000 people that survived...out in the desert outside of the totally
collapsed city on the Afghan border. I bet those Iranians remember all
the Americans helping load and unload the planes all night long, too.
You never get tired of being hugged to death for your good deeds.

I was going back to Iran as soon as they let Googoosh, the Iranian pop
star, back in the country. Taxi drivers used to pop in American rock
cassettes into their players for the American riders when I lived there.
"No, no! Do you have Googoosh?!", I'd always ask. EVERYONE had
Googoosh, a silly question. A huge smile would cross the taxi drivers
face as he popped open the glove compartment for you to select your
favorite Googoosh tape. He had 'em all! Ahh...cruising around Tehran
at 120km/hr with Googoosh blaring out of all 4 speakers...(c;

She is banned in Iran...FAR too sexy and a threat to Islam for comfort!
She drives Iranian men MAD with lust even Islam cannot control...(c;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googoosh
"In 2001-03-21 during Norouz holiday Googoosh performed in Dubai. This
concert was considered a homecoming for her since thousands of Iranians
crossed the Persian Gulf to hear her."
http://www.googoosh.tv/
Iranian women are a jealously guarded secret weapon, as you can see, FAR
more dangerous to world peace than any stupid bomb! They are Aryans,
not Arabs...a totally different race from Arabs, another group of
beautiful women Islam tries to hide:



Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities"
refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them
so
many ways?



Let's investigate your "average Arab"......here's one I know, Mahmood
Al-Yousif, a blogger in Bahrain, one of my favorite Middle Eastern
countries. His blog and his life are fairly open to everyone at:
http://mahmood.tv/

He's a videographer and owns a video production company. His great
pictures, especially of things he loves, are on:
http://flickr.com/search/?q=Mahmood+Al-Yousif+&m=text
.....a total ham....just like us!

A couple of years ago, his wife gave him a new stainless BBQ grille for
Christmas! They do Christmas like most Americans...not because they are
religious, but because it's a fun thing to do...presents and all.

Looks dangerous, doesn't he? Notice how he hold his scimitar to
decapitate you. This is the Arab the Zionist propagandists DON'T want
you to see, meet or think about. Notice how he wants the same kind of
life you want...a little freedom and to be left alone to enjoy himself.

You'll never see a Mahmood on American Zionist TV. That wouldn't be
good for the thought police. He has more money than most Bahrainis I
ever met and is far more outspoken, which gets him dragged into court by
his own government and his blog banned in Bahrain by the local
Islamists. But, he's a good representative of the Bahrainis I know and
have met. They all love the American people, too, because WE are the
country that made Bahrain filthy rich.

How can anyone have such a beautiful garden....IN THE SAND?!

These people, who do NOT have atomic weapons or even much of a military,
are TERRIFIED of the Zionist War Mongers WHO DO HAVE ATOMIC WEAPONS and
their American Government Cronies. Is it so hard to see why? They are
no threat to you or me or our way of life. They'd like to sell us some
oil at a fair price, taking into consideration the depleted value of our
private banknotes. I love their oil, personally, and have for most of
my life. It sure makes my life LOTS more pleasurable than anything the
Zionist War Mongers have ever done for me...or any of you.

I sat in the lobby of a really nice hotel in Bahrain enjoying some fine
tea under the Imir's picture one afternoon while I was in Bahrain
working on the USS Coronado, one of our two Navy support ships
homeported in Bahrain's main port. A nicely dressed Saudi sat near me
and notice I was a little different than most ugly Americans showing the
bottom of their shoes, an insult to Arab customs, and not drinking booze
the hotel serves for foreigners. He struck up a conversation with me,
curious about what I did and why I was in Bahrain. He'd come to buy
gold jewelry for his wives (2) over the causeway bridge from Daharan and
decided to stay overnight to see a boxing match playing near the hotel,
a sport Arabs love.

Before we parted ways, we made a little deal. I was to come home to
America and get my government to stop supporting the Zionists killing
Arabs. His part was deadly serious, I still believe. His part was to
make regular gasoline 50c/gallon in Charleston, SC, USA. I couldn't fix
my part of the bargain, but I still believe he could have gotten that
price at our pumps if I'd delivered the goods. They are THAT terrified
of Zionism and its atomic bombs.

Pity....Americans sure would have benefitted if the deal had gone
through.....(c;

Herodotus wrote in
:

Jere,
This is getting a bit off topic but begs a reply.



I'm with Peter 100%. Please notice how Peter knows the Zionist American
Government, run by the banker class, is a different entity, entirely, from
the American People like me and the Americans in this group.

Americans are not the "enemy" of the rest of the world. Our Zionist-
controlled government is.....and the blame centers in Tel-Aviv.

"mmc" wrote in
ng.com:


"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in
:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4kxTkhwR_Q

The only one telling the TRUTH....

Sadly, nobody wants to hear the truth Larry..
We'd rather let CNN, FOX, MTV, CMT, our church or political party tell
us what to think and do. Saves valuable porn surfing and video gaming
time. We're in a toilet, but the surge is working and there nothing
really wrong with the economy so all is good, right?
Could someone open up my drip just a little? aaaawwww, that's it.....




I'm kind of out of the loop, myself. I haven't had a TV in the house since
1992 when my wife left. She took it with her and I never replaced the
"billboard in my living room" as I refer to them. What little there is to
watch on it that's "news" between the incessant spams, is a lie, a fantasy
created by the shadow government.

That class, by the way, is terrified of uncontrolled bloggers and
especially you tube....(c;

......9/11 was INSIDE job.

Thanks for the interesting info. I always wondered why the US poured
billions of $$$ into Israel and received nothing in return. They even
attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty and gassed Palestinians in a prison
camp. Some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen are Arabic.



"Larry" wrote in message
...
Jere Lull wrote in news:2008071401055675249-
jerelull@maccom:

But can that be accomplished between cultures so different as al
Quaida
vs. most/all western countries?

First, I've never met, seen or had any contact with an "Al Quaida"
person. I've seen some government-doctored videos of an Osama Bin Laden
double who didn't even look like him. I'm not sure Al Quaida even
exists, outside the various government propaganda offices that keep
hammering away using this term, over and over and over....like they do
"terrorist".

I DO know several Moslems and have for many many years. I moved to
Tehran in 1977 and lived and worked for the Iranian Air Force until 28
days before the Shahanshah left in 1979. No matter what the Zionists
controlling the US Government say, Iranian people do NOT hate Americans.
Iranian people hate the American GOVERNMENT, and with very good reason.
It threatens to kill them, just like the Israeli masters that run the
American Government. Iranians, in general, are so smart they know there
is a difference. Drop by Radio Shack and talk to Iranians, who seem to
gravitate there for a job. They are natural merchants, so be wary of
all that stuff you've bought for reasons you can't imagine...(c;

I knew rich Iranians. I knew dirt poor Iranians, Azurbajanis, Kurds. A
Kurdish man even the Iranians in my neighborhood had trouble
communicating with stayed on after our apartment building was
constructed sleeping in our common area garage. We took pity on him
sleeping on his straw mat on the concrete and made a little plywood room
for him in a corner of the garage so he could be warm with his little
kerosene stove that made the best pot of tea I ever tasted! We
communicated with him through gestures and broken Farsi. The man was
huge, a natural fork lift. I saw him carry a whole 15 cuft fridge up 8
flights of stairs and not even sweat! He kept our place clean, lawn
hand manicured, rooftop picnic area we made clean, did odd jobs for us.
He cried when he saw the room we had made for him, probably the first
home he'd ever had. We Americans were heros for the whole neighborhood
once that word got out of our good deed. NOONE dared cross our lawn or
mess with our stuff with such a huge Kurd standing guard by the door,
his favorite position except during prayer times. I never met an
Iranian who hated me in over 2 years living in a middle-class
neighborhood, off the local economy....well, except for that Iranian guy
who tried to shove his way in front of me at the Supershellan
(supermarket) when I threatened to put that shopping cart right up his
ass, to the great amusement of the very English gentleman in line behind
me in his bowler hat commenting, "Good show, old boy! Good Show!"

I'd easily move back to Iran anytime the religious nuts lose their grip
on the Iranian government and sane people from the 21st Century started
running Iran again...after all this stupid sabre rattling stopped.
Hell, I used to volunteer to fly with the Iranian Air Force....great fun
except for the 3 weeks we flew 24/7 to Tabbas after a 9.2 earthquake
killed 25,000 people in 80 seconds flat during their dinner hour. That
was awful. We flew nonstop in C-130 Hercules to feed and house the
18,000 people that survived...out in the desert outside of the totally
collapsed city on the Afghan border. I bet those Iranians remember all
the Americans helping load and unload the planes all night long, too.
You never get tired of being hugged to death for your good deeds.

I was going back to Iran as soon as they let Googoosh, the Iranian pop
star, back in the country. Taxi drivers used to pop in American rock
cassettes into their players for the American riders when I lived there.
"No, no! Do you have Googoosh?!", I'd always ask. EVERYONE had
Googoosh, a silly question. A huge smile would cross the taxi drivers
face as he popped open the glove compartment for you to select your
favorite Googoosh tape. He had 'em all! Ahh...cruising around Tehran
at 120km/hr with Googoosh blaring out of all 4 speakers...(c;

She is banned in Iran...FAR too sexy and a threat to Islam for comfort!
She drives Iranian men MAD with lust even Islam cannot control...(c;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googoosh
"In 2001-03-21 during Norouz holiday Googoosh performed in Dubai. This
concert was considered a homecoming for her since thousands of Iranians
crossed the Persian Gulf to hear her."
http://www.googoosh.tv/
Iranian women are a jealously guarded secret weapon, as you can see, FAR
more dangerous to world peace than any stupid bomb! They are Aryans,
not Arabs...a totally different race from Arabs, another group of
beautiful women Islam tries to hide:



Can Israel possibly solve the problem of so many Muslim "entities"
refusing any possibility that they are a valid state, attacking them
so
many ways?



Let's investigate your "average Arab"......here's one I know, Mahmood
Al-Yousif, a blogger in Bahrain, one of my favorite Middle Eastern
countries. His blog and his life are fairly open to everyone at:
http://mahmood.tv/

He's a videographer and owns a video production company. His great
pictures, especially of things he loves, are on:
http://flickr.com/search/?q=Mahmood+Al-Yousif+&m=text
....a total ham....just like us!

A couple of years ago, his wife gave him a new stainless BBQ grille for
Christmas! They do Christmas like most Americans...not because they are
religious, but because it's a fun thing to do...presents and all.

Looks dangerous, doesn't he? Notice how he hold his scimitar to
decapitate you. This is the Arab the Zionist propagandists DON'T want
you to see, meet or think about. Notice how he wants the same kind of
life you want...a little freedom and to be left alone to enjoy himself.

You'll never see a Mahmood on American Zionist TV. That wouldn't be
good for the thought police. He has more money than most Bahrainis I
ever met and is far more outspoken, which gets him dragged into court by
his own government and his blog banned in Bahrain by the local
Islamists. But, he's a good representative of the Bahrainis I know and
have met. They all love the American people, too, because WE are the
country that made Bahrain filthy rich.

How can anyone have such a beautiful garden....IN THE SAND?!

These people, who do NOT have atomic weapons or even much of a military,
are TERRIFIED of the Zionist War Mongers WHO DO HAVE ATOMIC WEAPONS and
their American Government Cronies. Is it so hard to see why? They are
no threat to you or me or our way of life. They'd like to sell us some
oil at a fair price, taking into consideration the depleted value of our
private banknotes. I love their oil, personally, and have for most of
my life. It sure makes my life LOTS more pleasurable than anything the
Zionist War Mongers have ever done for me...or any of you.

I sat in the lobby of a really nice hotel in Bahrain enjoying some fine
tea under the Imir's picture one afternoon while I was in Bahrain
working on the USS Coronado, one of our two Navy support ships
homeported in Bahrain's main port. A nicely dressed Saudi sat near me
and notice I was a little different than most ugly Americans showing the
bottom of their shoes, an insult to Arab customs, and not drinking booze
the hotel serves for foreigners. He struck up a conversation with me,
curious about what I did and why I was in Bahrain. He'd come to buy
gold jewelry for his wives (2) over the causeway bridge from Daharan and
decided to stay overnight to see a boxing match playing near the hotel,
a sport Arabs love.

Before we parted ways, we made a little deal. I was to come home to
America and get my government to stop supporting the Zionists killing
Arabs. His part was deadly serious, I still believe. His part was to
make regular gasoline 50c/gallon in Charleston, SC, USA. I couldn't fix
my part of the bargain, but I still believe he could have gotten that
price at our pumps if I'd delivered the goods. They are THAT terrified
of Zionism and its atomic bombs.

Pity....Americans sure would have benefitted if the deal had gone
through.....(c;

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:58:19 +0000, Larry wrote:

Herodotus wrote in
:

Jere,
This is getting a bit off topic but begs a reply.



I'm with Peter 100%. Please notice how Peter knows the Zionist American
Government, run by the banker class, is a different entity, entirely, from
the American People like me and the Americans in this group.

Americans are not the "enemy" of the rest of the world. Our Zionist-
controlled government is.....and the blame centers in Tel-Aviv.

Hi Larry,

Being science trained I am naturally sceptical of conspiracy theories,
not to say that there is some validity and that they are not true.
Hence I am somewhat loath to ascribe to a Zionist conspiracy theory
however plausible it sometimes seems.

But a lot of educated, informed and not anti-Jewish people are asking
the same question. Why is it that Israel has such a hold on American
politicians? Is it the large monied and powerful Jewish lobby and
numbers of Jewish voters in the USA? Is it due to our collective guilt
over the holocaust and all the evils and pogroms that have been
inflicted on Jews over the centuries? I even feel the collective
guilt.

I bought a very scholarly book on the establishment of the state of
Israel whereby it showed that the politicians responsible for
promoting it were the chapel going - Methodists, Baptists and
Presbyterians (as opposed to Church of England - Episcopalean) British
such as Disraeli and American stalwart christian politicians such as
Woodrow Wilson. They were devout Bible readers as opposed to
Cathoilics and Church of England devotees who seldom read the Bible
with as much avidity. Unfortunately I gave this book to a Jewish
former work colleague who expressed an interest so I cab no longer
quote it. Excellent reading and not anti Israeli in the least.

Israel's special relationship with the USA is of course convenient to
the latter. When the United Nations, lead by the USA imposed a trade
embargo with specific emphasis on weaponry on the South African
Apartheid regime, South Africa was able to obtain what it required by
way of Israel. I know that part of the exchange was Artillery
manufactured in South Africa. Small arms and such as submachine guns
were sent from Israel. A friend of mine who was a major in the South
African army said that they often received consignments from the USA
via Israel which were unopened until recieved.

Though I am a practicing Moslem, I am not necessarily anti Jewish. I
do believe that everyone has a right to a home and security, but the
actions of the Jewish settlers just taking over Palistinian occupied
lands even though their government has deemed it illegal squatting is
nothing short of barbarism. The world (and myself) applauded Israel
when they rescued the hostages at Entebbe in Uganda. Now that they are
doing to their own citizens what the Nazi regime did to them. Nietzche
said that when you look into the abbys, be careful that the abbys does
not look back at you. They seem to have fallen into that abbys.

The state of Israel seems to me to be like the small kid who bullies
other around him and does and says what he likes because he is knows
he is protected by the strongest boy on the block.

To threaten a pre-emptive strike against Iran if "it feels
threatened"as it has done in the last few days is tribal, base and
barbaric. This excuse has been used many times over the centuries to
initiate wars. It may be a good military tactic but surely we have
advanced further than that. A bit like the afggressive drunk who hits
a bystander because he didn't like the way he was looking at him (when
he wasn't).

People have to stop ascribing the conflict and other world conficts as
a Moslem-Christian-Jewish divide. Much of this is hyped up by
politicians and the news media, most of whose reporters are as
ignorant as most of their readers of factual data.

It should be considered that we Moslems are directly enjoined to
respect "The peoples of the Book" - that is Chistians and Jews as well
as Moslems who have common respect for the Old Testament or Torah and
its additions. We all share a common Mosaic adherence.

It should also be born in mind that under the various Moslem regimes
throughout history, Christians and Jews were protected and thrived. It
was the Turkish Sultan Suleiman who sent a fleet of ships to bring
back the Sephardic Jews of Spain when they were being expelled by the
Christian Isabella under pain of death. He built at his expense two
large synagogues in Istanbul which are still there today. These people
consider themselves Turks but still speak 15th century Spanish. They
have no desire to go to Israel.

Any web search on the 700 years of Islamic Spain or such as 10th
century Islamic Sicily will show that these were truely enlightened
civilisations with religious tolerance and integration with Jewish and
Christian Vizers, judges and scholars all living harmoniously. At the
time, if they wished for an education, many north Europeans travelled
to Moslem countries. My favourite Catholic, Saint Francis of Assisi
studied at the university in Cairo. He even requested an audience with
the Sultan Saladin to convert him to Christianity. Saladin listened
to and conversed with him for two days and then politely declined the
offer to convert. Remember it was the Christian crusaders who under
Peter the Hermit who, when he was asked how they were to tell
Christians, Jews and Moslems apart as they all dressed the same,
replied "Kill them all, God will know his own" It was the 4th
Crusaders who sacked Byzantium, divided its lands between them and
took its treasures back home (lions of Venice for example). The
Ottomans only finished off a much weakened state. The only Church they
turned into a mosque was Hagia Sophia. It would do well for both sides
to examine the background of history as well as each other's
religions. Moslems are far more allied and akin to the West than most
people realise. Without them there would have been no Renaissance.

How about we all try to show a bit of common sense.

I thank God that I travel under the New Zealand flag. We have no
enemies and what little people know of us gives us a good reception.

Anyway, this is way off topic.

regards
Peter