"Thomas Flores" wrote in
:

Thanks for the interesting info. I always wondered why the US poured
billions of $$$ into Israel and received nothing in return. They even
attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty and gassed Palestinians in a
prison camp. Some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen are
Arabic.



I graduated from ET "A" school in 1965 and was offered PMEL (Calibration
Lab) school at Lowry AFB, Colo because I was first in my class of 39.
Three of the guys in my class were killed at the hands of our "friends",
the Israelis aboard USS Liberty, below decks where that huge hole in the
hull was.

That could have very easily have BEEN ME, too!

As you may have guessed, I'm no friend of Israel or the Zionist Terrorists
who run it.

Herodotus wrote in
:

How about we all try to show a bit of common sense.

I thank God that I travel under the New Zealand flag. We have no
enemies and what little people know of us gives us a good reception.

Anyway, this is way off topic.

regards
Peter



Peter, have you ever read about the USS Liberty from the first-hand
reports of her crew in 1967? Take a look if you haven't....

http://www.gtr5.com/

Liberty was a spy ship sent to Israel to be sunk by them and blamed on
Egypt so the false flaggers could drag the US military into the 6-day
war to do Isreal's bidding. The valiant efforts of the captain and crew
of Liberty saved the ship and thwarted the plans of US Zionists by
keeping her afloat, at which time a cover story had to appear that she
was mistaken for an Egyptian horse carrier that had no resemblence,
whatsoever, to a US Navy spy ship bristling with hundreds of antennas
over her superstructure.

Hearing frantic calls from Liberty, the Sixth Fleet commander sent his
jets to save Liberty and her crew from the Israeli attacks, TWICE! Each
time, he was ORDERED by the highest levels of the Pentagram and White
House to recall the jets as that would have ruined the plan to drag us
into another war to the delight of our Federal Reserve bankers.

By the way, I'm a former Christian, having been dragged into it by
parents and adults since birth. I'm a practicing Atheist, today. There
is no "god" and has never been one. Human superstitions run rampant
throughout our history without a single shred of evidence to
substantiate any of it. Those who live off superstitions make damned
sure noone asks too many embarrassing questions like when was Christ
born and when did it supposedly die. They don't like to talk about the
following 70 years when not a single historian wrote a single sentence
about such a man who could walk on water, heal the sick waving his hand
and raise the dead. I find that quite curious, don't you? The myth of
Jesus Christ came 3000 years after the same exact story of Horus in
verifiable Egyptian stone hyeroglyphics at Luxor, another of the
Zodiacal Sun Gods in a long string of Zodiacal Sun Gods. American
Christians get mad if you ask them what that fish symbol and cross on
the back of their minivans represents, having no idea of its Zodiac base
in the age of Pisces and the shorthand cross of the Zodiac they took the
ring off of many centuries ago...

It will be a personal shame I cannot be here when the Procession of the
Zodiac passes from Pisces into the Age of Aquarius around 2150 to see
the looks on their faces when nothing happens, except in their minds....

There are some great videos on YouTube you may find enlightening:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mzciu8HvfwA
Zeitgeist - The Movie....watch all 13 parts on YouTube. One whole
section is about using religion to enslave us.

Root of all Evil by Richard Dawkins
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc
Professor Dawkins' view that forcing children into their parent's
superstitions is child abuse. Having been a victim, I heartily agree.

It's a crazy world we live in. Over 5000 humans die each DAY in the
name of one religion or another. How absurd. No wonder we're hell bent
on destroying the whole race as fast as possible.

Herodotus wrote in
:

Without them there would have been no Renaissance.


The number of Americans who are not professors of archiology and know about
what Moslems did in Spain during the dark ages can be counted in an hour.

Americans are great fodder for religious zealots even more than some place
like Afghanistan. We live in a government-sponsored vacuum.

Peter, have you ever read about the USS Liberty from the first-hand
reports of her crew in 1967? Take a look if you haven't....

Hi Larry,
Yes. It happened during my first year of university and I remember
watching special reports from the non-aligned networks. It was rather
obvious to all what had been going on. Which brings to mind the
sinking of the Maine in Havana Harbor (spelled that way for Bruce's
sake) in 1898 as a prelude to taking over many of the Spanish colonial
possessions such as the Philippines and converting them to American
colonial possessions.


By the way, I'm a former Christian, having been dragged into it by
parents and adults since birth. I'm a practicing Atheist, today. There
is no "god" and has never been one. Human superstitions run rampant
throughout our history without a single shred of evidence to
substantiate any of it. Those who live off superstitions make damned
sure noone asks too many embarrassing questions like when was Christ
born and when did it supposedly die. They don't like to talk about the
following 70 years when not a single historian wrote a single sentence
about such a man who could walk on water, heal the sick waving his hand
and raise the dead. I find that quite curious, don't you? The myth of
Jesus Christ came 3000 years after the same exact story of Horus in
verifiable Egyptian stone hyeroglyphics at Luxor, another of the
Zodiacal Sun Gods in a long string of Zodiacal Sun Gods. American
Christians get mad if you ask them what that fish symbol and cross on
the back of their minivans represents, having no idea of its Zodiac base
in the age of Pisces and the shorthand cross of the Zodiac they took the
ring off of many centuries ago...


In many ways I agree with you and personally do not know if there is a
God as such. It doesn't really matter at all to me. Prayer can be seen
as a means of talking to one's inner self, otherwise we do so little
introspection in our busy lives. It all depends on how you define or
visualise God which is different for all of us. Could be an
anthropomorphic bearded Michael- Angelo figure sitting on a throne or
a cloud or could be merely the life force which we are all part of.
There is also the need many people feel of having some path to follow
and a guide to living a good life. A boyhood friend of mine who is a
Catholic priest says that if simple people did not have statues of
saints to pray before, they would find it difficult to focus.

I have read the Bible (at a religous Christian boarding school) and
for me, there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there
is in the Koran and in Bhuddist sutras; as there is in some of
Shakespear's sonnets and other poems. I spent a year in Kyoto many
years ago and can still vividly recall some of the Haiku poems I
learned such as the words that spring to mind when I see places where
thousands died in war - pointlessly in the long run.

"Of twenty thousand warriors life and sword and shield
Naught hath remained but the summer grass
Growing over the old battlefield'

It is a religous poem witten by a famous Bhuddist monk.

As for Christian symbolism, I could wax eloquent about such as the
misinterpretation of the Greek word kourae (young girl) for 'virgin',
the fact the Jesus died on a stake (word used is Greek "stauros' - the
cross came in 320 years later as a former symbol of the Roman Sol
Invicta - the sun God). I could go on for days in a like manner but to
do so would be pointless as far as I am concerned as it is the message
that should be the most important point of focus and what Christ said
is some pretty impressive advice for living in many ways.

Ok. It was basically from the mysticism of the Essenes who existed at
the same time but regardless, it is good advice to ponder upon.

I think that to more understand Jesus and his message one should
examine it in the scope of the times he lived. He may or may not have
been divine - thousands of people have died over that question -
Nestorians, Albigensians, Arrians etc. - but just look at the message.
Loving thy neighbour as thyself is not a bad way to treat your fellow
man.

My God, I sound like a Bible Belter!!

Here endeth the lesson!


Root of all Evil by Richard Dawkins
http://youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc
Professor Dawkins' view that forcing children into their parent's
superstitions is child abuse. Having been a victim, I heartily agree.

Yes, but the strange thing is that young people are now flocking back
to the banners of the various churches even though their parents
didn't have any religious beliefs. It's as if there is the need for
that certain something that will make sense of it all that resides
deep inside us all.

Besides Dawkins is a bit one eyed and seems to have a basic inviolate
view of what the "God" he denies is. He may be right.

Have you ever nursed someone who is dieing? I have. Amazing how they
"find God" when they spent their lives as atheists.

As for the afterlife. To hell with it! I don't want to go to heaven
and be attended by umpteen virgins. I'm sick of women at present. I
want to be reincarnated as a tablecloth. At least I'd` get laid three
times a day with narry a woman in sight. If some of the people I have
met who believe that they are going upstairs get there, I for one
certainly don't want to spend time in their company. They are just
bloody boring.

cheers
Peter

It's a crazy world we live in. Over 5000 humans die each DAY in the
name of one religion or another. How absurd. No wonder we're hell bent
on destroying the whole race as fast as possible.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:48:27 +0000, Larry wrote:

Herodotus wrote in
:

Without them there would have been no Renaissance.


The number of Americans who are not professors of archiology and know about
what Moslems did in Spain during the dark ages can be counted in an hour.

Hi Larry,
Yes, the two main things I wanted to see in Spain when we sailed there
was Gaudi's Barcelona, especially his Sagria Familia - the Cathedral
that is still under construction and the Alhambra, the Moorish palace
in Granada. In both places I was in the seventh heaven. It's amazing
to see irrigation schemes around Andalucia that are still intact and
providing water to crops that were built more than 1,000 years ago by
the Moors. That era has always fascinated me and another must see was
Raphael's huge wall painting in a former Pope's bedroom in the Vatican
of "The School of Athens" with all the most important philosophers
present. One was Avveroes - the Moslem scholar of Granada who was in
communication with (Saint) Thomas Aquinas and who solved the problem
of faith verses reason -duly incorporated into Catholic doctrine.

Americans are great fodder for religious zealots even more than some place
like Afghanistan. We live in a government-sponsored vacuum.

I'd rather not comment but met a lot of well informed people in San
Francisco who said they got their news about the States from foreign
radio stations such as BBC and Deutsche Vela

cheers
Peter

Herodotus wrote in
:

Yes, the two main things I wanted to see in Spain when we sailed there
was Gaudi's Barcelona, especially his Sagria Familia - the Cathedral
that is still under construction and the Alhambra, the Moorish palace
in Granada. In both places I was in the seventh heaven. It's amazing
to see irrigation schemes around Andalucia that are still intact and
providing water to crops that were built more than 1,000 years ago by
the Moors.

I lived in Tehran, Iran from 1977 to 28 days before the Shahanshah was
deposed in 1979. He was more reluctant than I to leave the gunfire in
the streets.

While I lived there, I became fascinated with Persian engineering,
especially the water systems that collect rain on the tropical north
side of the Alborz Mountains and funnel it into Tehran in the desert on
the south side, at the expense I'm sure of thousands of slave miners'
lives a few thousand years ago. The city is literally awash in running
water running down a channel on each side of the streets called a jube.
In small streets, modern Iranian engineers designed the jubes between
the road surface and the curb, perfectly placed and just the right width
to DROP YOUR TIRE INTO, proving that modern Iranian engineers have just
about zero chance of building a working bomb without destroying half the
country in the oops explosions that are sure to ensue. There is a wide
difference between PERSIAN engineers and IRANIAN engineers, who are
raised in a social system based on one of the most comical bluff systems
I've ever encountered. If an instructor wants all the Iranians taking
the test to have the SAME wrong answer to the test, he only needs to
exit the testing room for 15 minutes and it will occur...(c;

The aquaducts and tunnels carved through the mountain to the Tehran side
is quite a feat of engeering still in use today. The original shah
bought huge oak trees from the Israelis and planted them in little steps
down Pahlavi Avenue (now renamed I'm sure) from the palace to the train
station. They have grown so huge being waterered 24/7 with 12 hours of
sunshine every day in the desert to create food and O2 they completely
cover the 4-lane highway from storefront on one side to storefront on
the other. Every little step is a separate little waterfall for the
millions of gallons pouring downhill from the mountain...and makes a
separate little evaporative air conditioner that cools amazingly well
the entire street under this beautiful canopy of trees. If the city
weren't just totally covered in dust from construction and dust storms,
it would be truely beautiful. I explored both sides of the mountain
where the water goes in and where it comes out...very interesting
considering how many centuries separate us.

The only people in peril from Iranian nuclear weapons research are the
ones living around the plant's blast zone WHEN, not if, it finally goes
critical and takes out the valley.... I worked with their finest who
are also expert bluffers. If you look at Doshen-Tappeh Air Force Base
on the NE side of Tehran, where I worked while there, using current
Google Earth sat photos, you'll find the whole base without planes,
trucks, cars, or anything else that looks like military activity. It's
DESERTED except for a few old planes that look abandoned next to the
hangar building I worked in, the largest building on the tarmac. It was
a bustling array of activity in 1978-79 when I worked there, our primary
mission SIGINT/ELINT of Afghanistan and Iraq along the borders where we
had many mountaintop listening stations monitoring Iran's neighbors'
electronic emissions....up to 18Ghz, higher than the neighbors ever
transmitted...(c;

Herodotus wrote in
:

there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there
is in the Koran

I bought an Enlish translation of the Koran in a bookshop in the Souk in
Manama, Bahrain. It was translated by a moslem in India in the 1920's and
has been reprinted ever since. The Indian publisher uses terribly
primitive publishing equipment and it shows. The cover is made by hand!

I learned not to read it where any Bahrainis could see me in short order to
keep the lectures to a minimum. Showing an interest, they can go on for
hours...(c; I find it terribly disturbing with so many gory instructions
about cutting off various body parts, outright genocide or at least
murders, and I can see why there is so much blood associated with Islam
like the stonings of half buried people in Iran (youtube has the videos).

No thanks. Mankind needs to shed itself of these killing fields caused by
religions. I find it quite comforting to know that when I die, I simply
don't exist any more and can be soon forgotten, like the billions before
me, recycled into more life by natural selection. I don't have to
"prepare" for death at all. I'm leaving that to someone else's problems...
(c;

Excellent thoughts, Peter. I do disagree with the tablecloth aspect,
but that's just a quibble in the greater scheme.

--Vic

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:01:20 +0000, Larry wrote:

Herodotus wrote in
:

there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there
is in the Koran

I bought an Enlish translation of the Koran in a bookshop in the Souk in
Manama, Bahrain. It was translated by a moslem in India in the 1920's and
has been reprinted ever since. The Indian publisher uses terribly
primitive publishing equipment and it shows. The cover is made by hand!

I learned not to read it where any Bahrainis could see me in short order to
keep the lectures to a minimum. Showing an interest, they can go on for
hours...(c; I find it terribly disturbing with so many gory instructions
about cutting off various body parts, outright genocide or at least
murders, and I can see why there is so much blood associated with Islam
like the stonings of half buried people in Iran (youtube has the videos).

No thanks. Mankind needs to shed itself of these killing fields caused by
religions. I find it quite comforting to know that when I die, I simply
don't exist any more and can be soon forgotten, like the billions before
me, recycled into more life by natural selection. I don't have to
"prepare" for death at all. I'm leaving that to someone else's problems...
(c;

The problem in imagining a religionless history is considering how
much worse such a history would be.
Leaving aside religions' excesses - and there is every reason to
suppose those excesses would be greater without the constraints of
religion-imposed "morality"- what motivations toward "good" can you
point to that are not sourced in the tenets of a religion?
You can't.
There is no profit in bemoaning history. We are its final product.
History is best used to refine our movement forward.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:01:20 +0000, Larry wrote:

Herodotus wrote in
m:

there is some wonderful wisdom at times in that book as there
is in the Koran

I bought an Enlish translation of the Koran in a bookshop in the Souk in
Manama, Bahrain. It was translated by a moslem in India in the 1920's and
has been reprinted ever since. The Indian publisher uses terribly
primitive publishing equipment and it shows. The cover is made by hand!

I learned not to read it where any Bahrainis could see me in short order
to
keep the lectures to a minimum. Showing an interest, they can go on for
hours...(c; I find it terribly disturbing with so many gory instructions
about cutting off various body parts, outright genocide or at least
murders, and I can see why there is so much blood associated with Islam
like the stonings of half buried people in Iran (youtube has the videos).

No thanks. Mankind needs to shed itself of these killing fields caused by
religions. I find it quite comforting to know that when I die, I simply
don't exist any more and can be soon forgotten, like the billions before
me, recycled into more life by natural selection. I don't have to
"prepare" for death at all. I'm leaving that to someone else's
problems...
(c;

The problem in imagining a religionless history is considering how
much worse such a history would be.
Leaving aside religions' excesses - and there is every reason to
suppose those excesses would be greater without the constraints of
religion-imposed "morality"- what motivations toward "good" can you
point to that are not sourced in the tenets of a religion?
You can't.
There is no profit in bemoaning history. We are its final product.
History is best used to refine our movement forward.

--Vic


I disagree. You can only guess at what a religionless history would have
been like.

Morality via religion breeds behavior that is covered up by the officials
and participants of the religion. Look at Major and minor religions - bad
medicine (literally), priests abusing kids, "holy wars" throughout history.
Look at communism - arguably a state-sponsored religion, no good can be
found beyond the theory, which doesn't work in practice. Look at
capitalism - reasonably ok, as long as it is constrained by the "public
good" interest (however you define it), not socialism (which is really a
nanny state), but enlightened self-interest, where gov't nudges itself and
its citizens toward the public good based on facts not faith.

I would point to science, lead by intelligent, caring people who are
generally non-sectarian or can at least separate themselves from their faith
beliefs. Some have claimed that science (or math) is a religion, which I'll
allow, but it's based on hypothesis
(http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=hypothesis) vs. conjecture
(http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=conjecture) or faith
(http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/we...=&o3=&h= 0000)
(aka Intelligent Design).


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com