On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:58:19 +0000, Larry wrote:

Herodotus wrote in
:

Jere,
This is getting a bit off topic but begs a reply.



I'm with Peter 100%. Please notice how Peter knows the Zionist American
Government, run by the banker class, is a different entity, entirely, from
the American People like me and the Americans in this group.

Americans are not the "enemy" of the rest of the world. Our Zionist-
controlled government is.....and the blame centers in Tel-Aviv.

Hi Larry,

Being science trained I am naturally sceptical of conspiracy theories,
not to say that there is some validity and that they are not true.
Hence I am somewhat loath to ascribe to a Zionist conspiracy theory
however plausible it sometimes seems.

But a lot of educated, informed and not anti-Jewish people are asking
the same question. Why is it that Israel has such a hold on American
politicians? Is it the large monied and powerful Jewish lobby and
numbers of Jewish voters in the USA? Is it due to our collective guilt
over the holocaust and all the evils and pogroms that have been
inflicted on Jews over the centuries? I even feel the collective
guilt.

I bought a very scholarly book on the establishment of the state of
Israel whereby it showed that the politicians responsible for
promoting it were the chapel going - Methodists, Baptists and
Presbyterians (as opposed to Church of England - Episcopalean) British
such as Disraeli and American stalwart christian politicians such as
Woodrow Wilson. They were devout Bible readers as opposed to
Cathoilics and Church of England devotees who seldom read the Bible
with as much avidity. Unfortunately I gave this book to a Jewish
former work colleague who expressed an interest so I cab no longer
quote it. Excellent reading and not anti Israeli in the least.

Israel's special relationship with the USA is of course convenient to
the latter. When the United Nations, lead by the USA imposed a trade
embargo with specific emphasis on weaponry on the South African
Apartheid regime, South Africa was able to obtain what it required by
way of Israel. I know that part of the exchange was Artillery
manufactured in South Africa. Small arms and such as submachine guns
were sent from Israel. A friend of mine who was a major in the South
African army said that they often received consignments from the USA
via Israel which were unopened until recieved.

Though I am a practicing Moslem, I am not necessarily anti Jewish. I
do believe that everyone has a right to a home and security, but the
actions of the Jewish settlers just taking over Palistinian occupied
lands even though their government has deemed it illegal squatting is
nothing short of barbarism. The world (and myself) applauded Israel
when they rescued the hostages at Entebbe in Uganda. Now that they are
doing to their own citizens what the Nazi regime did to them. Nietzche
said that when you look into the abbys, be careful that the abbys does
not look back at you. They seem to have fallen into that abbys.

The state of Israel seems to me to be like the small kid who bullies
other around him and does and says what he likes because he is knows
he is protected by the strongest boy on the block.

To threaten a pre-emptive strike against Iran if "it feels
threatened"as it has done in the last few days is tribal, base and
barbaric. This excuse has been used many times over the centuries to
initiate wars. It may be a good military tactic but surely we have
advanced further than that. A bit like the afggressive drunk who hits
a bystander because he didn't like the way he was looking at him (when
he wasn't).

People have to stop ascribing the conflict and other world conficts as
a Moslem-Christian-Jewish divide. Much of this is hyped up by
politicians and the news media, most of whose reporters are as
ignorant as most of their readers of factual data.

It should be considered that we Moslems are directly enjoined to
respect "The peoples of the Book" - that is Chistians and Jews as well
as Moslems who have common respect for the Old Testament or Torah and
its additions. We all share a common Mosaic adherence.

It should also be born in mind that under the various Moslem regimes
throughout history, Christians and Jews were protected and thrived. It
was the Turkish Sultan Suleiman who sent a fleet of ships to bring
back the Sephardic Jews of Spain when they were being expelled by the
Christian Isabella under pain of death. He built at his expense two
large synagogues in Istanbul which are still there today. These people
consider themselves Turks but still speak 15th century Spanish. They
have no desire to go to Israel.

Any web search on the 700 years of Islamic Spain or such as 10th
century Islamic Sicily will show that these were truely enlightened
civilisations with religious tolerance and integration with Jewish and
Christian Vizers, judges and scholars all living harmoniously. At the
time, if they wished for an education, many north Europeans travelled
to Moslem countries. My favourite Catholic, Saint Francis of Assisi
studied at the university in Cairo. He even requested an audience with
the Sultan Saladin to convert him to Christianity. Saladin listened
to and conversed with him for two days and then politely declined the
offer to convert. Remember it was the Christian crusaders who under
Peter the Hermit who, when he was asked how they were to tell
Christians, Jews and Moslems apart as they all dressed the same,
replied "Kill them all, God will know his own" It was the 4th
Crusaders who sacked Byzantium, divided its lands between them and
took its treasures back home (lions of Venice for example). The
Ottomans only finished off a much weakened state. The only Church they
turned into a mosque was Hagia Sophia. It would do well for both sides
to examine the background of history as well as each other's
religions. Moslems are far more allied and akin to the West than most
people realise. Without them there would have been no Renaissance.

How about we all try to show a bit of common sense.

I thank God that I travel under the New Zealand flag. We have no
enemies and what little people know of us gives us a good reception.

Anyway, this is way off topic.

regards
Peter