frank, I know you won't understand this, but I am posting it anyway so that
other people can laugh at you.

you see, frank, when someone is REALLY dumb they are too dumb to even begin to
realize they are dumb. most usually these really dumb ones -- such as yourself
-- just go right on claimig they personally knew everything it was possible to
know by the time they got out of 6th grade the second time.

got you have gainful employment, frank. wouldn't want you to be a drain on your
country's welfare system.

you may continue to babble, frank.


The best advice is always, "Don't feed the trolls." I admit that I've
sometimes responded to a Jax post because he's just soooo clueless and
sometimes I'm in a cruel mood.

Eventually he'll drop out of this particular manic phase and hit his
depressive phase and we'll be rid of him for a while again.

Frank

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:42:33 -0500, rhys wrote:

I agree entirely, but I don't see it necessarily as a positive
development for the lifestyle of world cruising.

========================================

You're right but the world cruising market is very small. It can be a
lot of fun to think about sailing to a small island in the middle of
no where, but the best way to actually get there is still on a 727.
It's cheaper, faster and you get a lot more time to enjoy the island.

On 23 Mar 2004 12:35:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

===========================================

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

What did you use to remove the deck stains?

offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

I do not own a Bristol 27, though I do know someone who crossed the North
Atlantic twice in such. he also sailed in the boat out the St Lawrence down to
the Caribbean and back before his first crossing. He also set sail for the
Maritimes 1,200 miles away in a December snow storm.

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

===========================================

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

What did you use to remove the deck stains?

Wayne, I personally met a man who got caught solo quite east of Cape Hatterras
when a huricane unexpectedly turned way north. He rode the storm out (no winds
above 75 knots he said) rather than jump into the water to be rescued by the CG
who came out to retrieve him. He said he felt safer on the boat than getting
into the water.

I also talked with a guy (he had a boat for sale I thought I might be
interested in) who traveled a day and half to approach a port from which the CG
was *screaming* (his word) at him to NOT enter just because the winds got up to
40 knots and his "wife got scared". The boat the guy owned is considered and
extremely seaworthy boat and was nearly 40 feet long.

I stand by my statement that most people are terrified of the water

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop. And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

Sheldon


That's *certainly* true... many's the time I have sailed large sloops
with tillers, wishing I had a way to set more sail area aft so that the
boat would have *more* weather helm...

DSK


--
Sheldon Haynie
Texas Instruments
50 Phillipe Cote
Manchester, NH 03101
603 222 8652

(Bob Whitaker) wrote:
....snip...
You mentioned that this thread has spawned a couple if interesting
sub-threads, and I have another sub-thread for you. What do you think
of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? Years ago my Coast Guard Auxiliary
instructor was "big" on ketch (or yawl) rigs due to the smaller sails
and because a reefed sail on the mizzen mast could act as a weather
vane, pointing the bow to the wind and helping prevent the boat from
lying abeam to the waves. Is this one of those tactics you now
consider "passe"?

We're starting to get too many subthreads for me to follow. I gave my
standard diatribe about rigs in response to your response to DSK,
where you ask that as a P.S. So, jump over there for several
paragraphs of my opinions. (Worth every penny you paid for 'em!)

I believe that up through the 60s ~ early 70s, survival methods tended
to favor passive styles, e.g. lying a-hull. My interpretation of what
I've read about tactics since then (including Coles et al.) and my
personal experience favors active methods, e.g running off. But as I
said, everything has worked, and also failed to work, for different
people in different circumstances; so I think you'd be hard pressed to
definitively defend any given style of dealing with bad conditions.
Someone can always point to an exception and say, "But what about ..."
Me, I'd say that any opinion opposite mine is a case of abusus non
tollit usum; but I'll bet that those who oppose my positions would say
that *I'm* arguing abusus...

To be blunt, my short answer is, "Yes." Even for full keel, heavy
displacement, low aspect ratio, multi-stick etc. boats, my personal
belief is that passive methods are not as good as active methods. In
shorthand, that'd be "lying a-hull is passe." Like all
generalizations, it's too broadly stated; but again, we're not writing
full-length novels to each other here and we hafta use some shortcuts.

Frank

Should I have put a smiley on that last post?
Sheldon Haynie wrote:
Well a properly designed Yawl or ketch does not have excess weather helm as
the Main mast is farther forward than for a sloop.

Maybe it depends on how you define "properly designed." Some of the
yawls I've sailed in company with were old low-aspect sloops with the
boom docked and a mizzen stuck in place. Most of those are gone now.
OTOH we have a dock neighbor with a Seafarer 34, originally a yawl, but
now sailed as a sloop, and the owner reports that it handles the same
and that they always dropped the mizzen anyway when beating.

In some of the old advertising brochures, such as the Allieds or the
Cape Dories, you can see the sailplans for the yawl version right next
to the sloop version... is the mast in the same spot?

IIRC the Bermuda 40 was never offered as a sloop?


... And with a centerboard
you can tune to your hearts content, just 125 cranks up to down.

Agreed. One more advantage of a centerboard. Plus you can get it up out
of the way going downwind.


You can trim the mizzen to set a neutral helm on most any reach, or if you
are trying to point higher than about 50 degrees to true wind just drop it.

We set the mizzen staysail at about 80 degrees apparent, similar to the
asymmetric chute in usage. While the mizzen is only about 90 ft^2 (hoist 20,
boom 9) the staysail is closer to 350 ft^2. (Perpendicular about 25 and luff
28 or so) this is 50ft^2 bigger than my Main. (35 hoist and 17 foot)

Nice sail to carry in good winds of 5kts or higher, since it is low set it
is not very effective much below that. It is a very easy sail to set and
strike and trim, compared to setting a spinnaker.

Your leeway will vary.

I kind of like having the mizzen mast right where it is handy. It makes
a nice secure hand hold and a great mounting point for radar. It does
get in the way of the solar panel arch though

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:12:38 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:


You're right but the world cruising market is very small. It can be a
lot of fun to think about sailing to a small island in the middle of
no where, but the best way to actually get there is still on a 727.
It's cheaper, faster and you get a lot more time to enjoy the island.

It's the fastest way. Is it the best way? Hmmm...(looks up to see
beautiful wife in the V-berth and condensation forming on a pitcher of
cold daiquiris. Cue the sound of fish leaping in placid lagoon)....I
don't think so

R.